[Stoves] TLUD stove is fragile, traditional stove is robust, no stove is antifragile
lh cheng
lhkind at gmail.com
Sun Dec 3 21:59:34 CST 2017
thank you Neil, thank you so much.
through you valuable experience, I may conclude that indoor cooking is
really a bad idea for TLUD, even not DIY. the way you find valuable only
can be tested outdoor, we can't afford the risk of failure indoor.
since I sealed some gaps of my TLUD stove with cements, I have to wait for
couple of days, I return to my rocket stove, made some modification, it
works very fine yesterday and today.
under the same situation and condition, rocket stove and traditional stove
is much safer. and the rocket stove can burn clean. I am a little bit more
appreciate its merit, since I find TLUD is fragile. every fragile thing is
a ticking time bomb, though it is beautiful and perfect in normal state...
best regards
2017-12-03 21:26 GMT+08:00 <neiltm at uwclub.net>:
> On 3 Dec 2017 at 11:14, lh cheng wrote:
>
> > In my case, I have suffered one gas poison.
> > dizzy and paralyzed a little bit for 10 hrs, I only use TLUD less than 1
> > month, many times big smoke go out from my window, my neighbor is very
> nice
> > not calling the police. I can't imagine how a housewife deal with the
> hard
> > situation, maybe DIY is not a good idea.
> >
>
> I have been experimenting and regularly cooking, all year round for at
> least ten years by now, and I have never ever experienced anything like
> the poisoning you describe, but then I have NEVER run a TLUD indoors -
> always outside, albeit not far from the back door.
>
> In all that time and still to this day as happened only last week, I can
> still make a smokey mess, losing the flame, and I would venture to say
> that this will happen occasionally for as long as you experiment in so
> far as you may be pushing at the limits of stove configuration and fuel
> in your experiments, its moisture content in particular I still find hard
> to estimate without a damp meter, so from time to time I get caught out
> by outdoor uncovered wood that turns out to be wetter than I had
> anticipated. When this happens there are a number of ways to retrieve
> the situation or bale out of it altogether if the miscalculation has been
> too great! The simplest way to put an end to disasterous smoke, refusing
> all attempts at re-ignition is to have a biscuit tin available in which
> to tip the entire contents of the stove and put the lid on tight.
> Outside of course you could also douse the smouldering pile with water,
> but I prefer the air starvation method of quenching as what then quickly
> cools is potentially reusable. I quench all the remaining char this way
> so that by riddling out the ash it is immediately available for the
> barbeque.
>
> If you can dry enough fuel indoors to supply your cooking needs, then
> building and modifying your stove(s) to burn a more consistent fuel is a
> more reliable way to go. If indoor drying is a problem for supplying all
> your wood needs, then I have found I can usefully modify the kind of fire
> I want by mixing in damp outdoor wood with stove top dried. A shallow
> layer of damp at the bottom of a simple fixed air ratio TLUD stove can be
> really useful for extending total pyrolysis time, but at a more 'simmer'
> level after an earlier more vigorous burn with the drier wood at the top
> for the start of combustion.
>
> Ways to revive the lost flame:
>
> I grate candle wax with a serated knife over the top of my fuel as my
> preferred way to start my stoves, and often if the loss of flame is not
> too serious, sprinkling a few more gratings on top can revive the fire
> which can then be kept going.
>
> The other way I use is blasting air into the top of the stove through a
> pipe or I use a barbeque hand cranked fan.
>
> Sometimes even just throwing a lighted match into the pot, such that the
> brimstone is still burning as it enters can re-ignite the lost flame.
>
> I cook outdoors even when the temperature is below freezing. As I don't
> have any kind of roof cover outside it is usually only rain that puts me
> off cooking outdoors.
>
> I sent a post to this list last January, illustrated with photos of my
> experiments with utilising damp wood to advantage in controlling the fire
> I want for various cooking tasks, using the simple and cheap stainless
> steel natural draft camping stoves, which are made in China and sold
> through ebay and amazon. I think they are excellent, and reveal to me
> truly intelligent design which I have found to be optimum in versatility
> for their intended purpose, ie. camping where wide fuel variability is
> the rule, and reliability of starting and robustness of a useable fire
> exceeds clean emissions as a priority. We have lived for a month at a
> time entirely relying on these stoves for all our cooking.
>
> Look in the archives for:
>
> From: neiltm at uwclub.net
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: [Stoves] Chinese stove photo sequence
> Date sent: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 03:03:32 -0000
>
> My first post in this thread was on the 18th Jan 2017, and there are
> other posts. Let me know if you have any problem accessing the posts
> through the web, as I can forward it/them through email to you directly
> if preferred.
>
> If your priority is clean emissions and soot free pots, then you need to
> restrict primary air more than in my experiments above, and a ratio of 1
> primary to 6 secondary is about right, and can be calculated precisely if
> you are using drills to make the holes. With these sorts of ratios the
> stove will be more fuel fussy, meaning it will need to be well dried.
>
> Take care,
>
> Best wishes, Neil Taylor (in southern England)
>
>
>
> > regards
> >
> > 2017-12-03 10:47 GMT+08:00 Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>:
> >
> > > Cheng, see below
> > >
> > > Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> > > Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
> > > Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072 <(309)%20452-7072>
> > > Website: www.drtlud.com
> > >
> > > On 12/2/2017 7:48 PM, lh cheng wrote:
> > >
> > > TLUD stove is efficient but fragile. this fragile concept comes from a
> > > book "Antifragile", written by Nassim Nicholas Taleb, like Dr
> Anderson, he
> > > is a Doctor and professor. He have a good understanding of man-made
> > > artificial system, have deep insight of the weakness of some man-made
> > > system, and he find a good way to make money (of no small amount )
> through
> > > it from financial market.
> > >
> > > Fragile thing like Titanic ship, is high efficient, beautiful, but
> there
> > > were big risks, which cannot be avoided anyway, underneath the surface,
> > > when something wrong happened eventually, inevitably, no one can
> afford it.
> > >
> > > I criticize TLUD stove here, not in malice, but try to make something
> > > clear, maybe we can find out the hindrance of its popularity, find a
> > > direction to improve it, and help the user to use it in a safer way.
> > >
> > > TLUD stove separates gas combustion from gasification, and is
> batch-feed,
> > > this combination create efficiency and convenience, but also big risk.
> many
> > > thing can cause the fire ( gas combustion ) go out, too much or too
> little
> > > gas, too much or too little air, temperature too low, (too much or too
> > > little prmary air, cause too much or too little gas, both can lead to
> > > extinguish of the secondary combustion), too much moisture in the fuel.
> > > once the fire go out, great smoke jet out like crazy, poisonous, and
> the
> > > fuel is burning inside the inner cylinder like crazy, no easy way to
> put
> > > out the first combustion. it is very dangerous and bad situation for
> > > housewife, neighbors scared by the big smoke, people even can got
> killed by
> > > the poisonous gas. (when water can't low down the charcoal temperature,
> > > water H2O can be turned into poisonous CO gas immediately).
> > >
> > > The paragraph above does not express the reality of 40,000 TLUD stove
> > > users living closely together in We s Bengal, India. the concerns you
> > > raise can be presented in "theory", but that is ot the reality. You
> are
> > > writing line the TLUD "deniers" of 5 to 12 years ago. I heard that
> over
> > > and over. It is in the big New Yorker magazine articles. Those
> people
> > > are not saying such things any more, at least not publically or where
> their
> > > comments could leak back to me.
> > >
> > > Traditional stove have no such thing, because it is not batch-feeding,
> not
> > > burning in a tight closed space. and safer in unexpected situation. it
> is
> > > robust. that's why people prefer it over TLUD stove maybe.
> > >
> > > I have no clear idea yet, I just typed this message, not thinking it
> > > thoroughly.
> > >
> > > I accept your statement that you are basically not yet well informed or
> > > with much experience. Stick with the TLUD stoves. They are the
> wave of
> > > the future. They can become better, and that is where you and others
> will
> > > eventually make important contributions. -- And there will be
> many who
> > > will sit on the sidelines. --- Progress in the past few years
> has
> > > been great, and getting better all the time.
> > >
> > > I'll sign this message to show my full bias.
> > >
> > > Dr TLUD
> > >
> > > best regards
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2017-12-02 7:50 GMT+08:00 Nikhil Desai <pienergy2008 at gmail.com>:
> > >
> > >> Paul:
> > >>
> > >> Capital cost of the stove is a minor issue; the question is whether
> the
> > >> users like and use the stove. This is why contextual definitions
> matter,
> > >> because pellet production costs can vary greatly depending on the
> > >> feedstock.
> > >>
> > >> A high capital cost stove can be given one-time subsidy - should be
> given
> > >> to the distributor if one exists; could be given to a bulk producer -
> on
> > >> the condition that the stoves are found useful and used. Metrics of
> > >> efficiency and hourly emission rates are just smoke.
> > >>
> > >> I am glad to read "it is something about family, a cultural thing,
> > >> especially in country side." Gives the lie to physics-only theories of
> > >> supposed "stove science".
> > >>
> > >> Nikhil
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Cheng and all, (and a mention of Todd Albi). see below.
> > >>>
> > >>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> > >>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
> > >>> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072 <%28309%29%20452-7072>
> > >>> Website: www.drtlud.com
> > >>>
> > >>> On 11/29/2017 10:15 PM, lh cheng wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Another Chinese little project. Surely, it is cookstove, not heater.
> Too
> > >>> expensive, 1500RMB (230 USD), in rural area, a big number, very big,
> no one
> > >>> buy, not even one, in rural area. For user, many uncertainties to
> use new
> > >>> type of stove. if free of charge, a trustworthy friend who is an
> expert
> > >>> about this stove, that might be fine.
> > >>>
> > >>> I was wondering about the price of that pellet burner stove. Yes,
> it is
> > >>> expensive, but expensive is a relative term. It could be imported
> into
> > >>> America where $230 is inexpensive, but the price here would be so
> much
> > >>> higher and it would then be expensive here.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> stove thing should be open-source ( just like Dr Anderson's Champion
> > >>> Stove ), DIY, or made by acquaintance, it is something about family,
> a
> > >>> cultural thing, especially in country side. In city, electricity or
> LPG is
> > >>> enough.
> > >>>
> > >>> Is there any prospect in China for DIY. And what would be the
> > >>> acceptance of a stove made with thin metal? Generalizing, it seems
> that
> > >>> heavy construction of stoves is the standard in China. Todd Albi
> might be
> > >>> able to shed some light on this.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> a good approach for stove design maybe is that, basic knowledge of
> stove
> > >>> design spread among people, and people help each other.
> > >>>
> > >>> What do you have in mind? in the context of China? I have
> > >>> difficulty imagining stove design work in China outside of the
> factory
> > >>> context.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> concerning "stove intervention", during 1959-1961 in China, more
> than 30
> > >>> millions of people died because a stove intervention movement. and
> people
> > >>> have memories.
> > >>>
> > >>> Please provide more information about this statement about 30 million
> > >>> deaths.
> > >>>
> > >>> Welcome to the world of the Stoves Listserv. We appreciate your
> > >>> insights.
> > >>>
> > >>> Paul
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> best regards
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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