[Stoves] China and cookstoves [Was Re: A user-centered, iterative engineering approach for advanced biomass cookstove design and development]

Nikhil Desai pienergy2008 at gmail.com
Sun Dec 3 20:48:11 MST 2017


Ron:

That is an interesting question but the answer has to be compared to
alternative means of making money.

Reduction in fuel collection time is one form of saving; the time freed up
can be used for higher-priority activity, including education, child care,
or employment.

In other words, answers to this question can only be interpreted with
additional, context-specific information or questions. In and of itself, it
is a meaningless question.

There are indirect ways of gathering people's priorities -- observing what
they in fact do.

Here is what I have observed over the last several decades:

1. In India, housewives in cities and towns have indeed made money by
cooking, though on kerosene and LPG/electricity and preparing
dry/canned/frozen foods as well as fresh meals and snacks for sale.

2. Roughly a billion people in the developing world have moved away from
collecting woodfuels and cooking all the meals for family consumption.

3. Family size and composition, location, alternatives and priorities in
use of women's time have changed.

4. Charcoaling from own or others' trees is an income-generating activity,
but whether a cook wants to spend her time to do the same is open to
question. She might well want to do for selling locally as fuel but not to
some central authority for biochar.

Your question may be better directed to commercial, large-scale cooks, who
are probably easier customers for biomass and coal stoves anyway compared
to poor households.

Nikhil



------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nikhil Desai
(US +1) 202 568 5831
*Skype: nikhildesai888*


On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Ronal W. Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
wrote:

> Paul:
>
> I have yet to see on ANY stove questionnaire:  “How important is making
> (more than saving) money when you cook?”
>
> Ron
>
>
> On Dec 3, 2017, at 8:41 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
>
> Crispin,
>
> Good point.
>
> I wonder how ofter "pride of ownership" is included in the evaluations.
>
> I hope that such a quesiton can be asked to the 40,000 (or a sample) users
> of the Champion TLUD stove in West Bengal.
>
> About surveys and questionnaires and interviews, (whether for stoves or
> other topics), questions keep being changed, so comparison between results
> are often difficult or meaningless because of wording.   Are there some
> common (shared) questions that tend to be used in stove surveys?
>
> Paul
>
> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
> Skype:   paultlud    Phone: +1-309-452-7072 <(309)%20452-7072>
> Website:  www.drtlud.com
>
> On 12/3/2017 5:35 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
>
> In the survey of potential stove users conducted in Gauteng 2004, "Pride
> of ownership" scored above price and fuel consumption in a ranking of
> features.
>
> Philip confirms this aspect of reality in the South African market.
>
> Regards
> Crispin
>
>
> “Capital cost of the stove is a minor issue; the question is whether the
> users like and use the stove.” A community I studied carefully had a
> monthly household income of <$100 yet strove to buy a smokey cast iron
> coal-fired stove costing ~$400.  It met all their needs – including a
> higher social status merely because they possessed such a stove.
>
>
> Prof Philip Lloyd
> Energy Institute, CPUT
> PO Box 1906
> Bellville 7535
> Tel 021 959 4323
> Cell 083 441 5247
> PA Nadia 021 959 4330
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>] *On Behalf Of *Nikhil Desai
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 2, 2017 1:50 AM
> *To:* Paul Anderson
> *Cc:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] China and cookstoves [Was Re: A user-centered,
> iterative engineering approach for advanced biomass cookstove design and
> development]
>
>
>
> Paul:
>
> Capital cost of the stove is a minor issue; the question is whether the
> users like and use the stove. This is why contextual definitions matter,
> because pellet production costs can vary greatly depending on the
> feedstock.
>
> A high capital cost stove can be given one-time subsidy - should be given
> to the distributor if one exists; could be given to a bulk producer - on
> the condition that the stoves are found useful and used. Metrics of
> efficiency and hourly emission rates are just smoke.
>
> I am glad to read "it is something about family, a cultural thing,
> especially in country side." Gives the lie to physics-only theories of
> supposed "stove science".
>
> Nikhil
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> wrote:
> Cheng and all,   (and a mention of Todd Albi).     see below.
>
> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>
> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
>
> Skype:   paultlud    Phone: +1-309-452-7072 <%28309%29%20452-7072>
>
> Website:  www.drtlud.com <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.drtlud.com&data=02%7C01%7Ccrispinpigott%40outlook.com%7C62b2f8c8c9bf4c43283c08d53a40c4b8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478972205853695&sdata=PbkCfNM6hUmnmoyj1uEbhKXufYiC9MFTSc3ueAqhjNU%3D&reserved=0>
>
> On 11/29/2017 10:15 PM, lh cheng wrote:
>
> Another Chinese little project. Surely, it is cookstove, not heater. Too
> expensive, 1500RMB (230 USD), in rural area, a big number, very big, no one
> buy, not even one, in rural area. For user, many uncertainties to use new
> type of stove. if free of charge, a trustworthy friend who is an expert
> about this stove, that might be fine.
>
> I was wondering about the price of that pellet burner stove.  Yes, it is
> expensive, but expensive is a relative term.   It could be imported into
> America where $230 is inexpensive, but the price here would be so much
> higher and it would then be expensive here.
>
>
> stove thing should be open-source ( just like Dr Anderson's Champion Stove
> ), DIY, or made by acquaintance, it is something about family, a cultural
> thing, especially in country side. In city, electricity or LPG is enough.
> Is there any prospect in China for DIY.   And what would be the acceptance
> of a stove made with thin metal?   Generalizing, it seems that heavy
> construction of stoves is the standard in China.   Todd Albi might be able
> to shed some light on this.
>
>
> a good approach for stove design maybe is that, basic knowledge of stove
> design spread among people, and people help each other.
> What do you have in mind?    in the context of China?   I have difficulty
> imagining stove design work in China outside of the factory context.
>
>
> concerning "stove intervention", during 1959-1961 in China, more than 30
> millions of people died because a stove intervention movement. and people
> have memories.
> Please provide more information about this statement about 30 million
> deaths.
>
> Welcome to the world of the Stoves Listserv.   We appreciate your insights.
>
> Paul
>
>
> best regards
>
>
>
>
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