[Stoves] China and cookstoves [Was Re: A user-centered, iterative engineering approach for advanced biomass cookstove design and development]

[Nikhil Desai]

Philip:

I had a different reason - one-time subsidies for capital costs are easier
to design and implement. The main issue is what stoves (and pots if
possible) are in fact used and whether the running costs are affordable for
a large segment.

Much of the woodstove design work is stuck in fundamental deceit of metrics
and testing protocols that do not answer the question whether the stove can
be expected to be used. (I can design capital subsidies for briquetting and
pellet-making).

Not a whole lot of good is going to be done by issuing some ISO reports.
Nor is SE4All going to come up with $4 billion a year I read Kyte announced
at CCF 2017.

I don't see any tenable theory of change in current EPA/WHO work including
that in TC-285. Pending that, poor people will have to spend $400 for a
stove they can be proud of and can use. (EPA wants to legislate coal out of
existence around the world. Fat chance.)

Nikhil

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nikhil Desai
(US +1) 202 568 5831
*Skype: nikhildesai888*


On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 6:23 AM, Philip Lloyd <plloyd at mweb.co.za> wrote:

> “Capital cost of the stove is a minor issue; the question is whether the
> users like and use the stove.” A community I studied carefully had a
> monthly household income of <$100 yet strove to buy a smokey cast iron
> coal-fired stove costing ~$400.  It met all their needs – including a
> higher social status merely because they possessed such a stove.
>
>
>
> Prof Philip Lloyd
>
> Energy Institute, CPUT
>
> PO Box 1906
>
> Bellville 7535
>
> Tel 021 959 4323
>
> Cell 083 441 5247
>
> PA Nadia 021 959 4330
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Nikhil Desai
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 2, 2017 1:50 AM
> *To:* Paul Anderson
> *Cc:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] China and cookstoves [Was Re: A user-centered,
> iterative engineering approach for advanced biomass cookstove design and
> development]
>
>
>
> Paul:
>
> Capital cost of the stove is a minor issue; the question is whether the
> users like and use the stove. This is why contextual definitions matter,
> because pellet production costs can vary greatly depending on the
> feedstock.
>
> A high capital cost stove can be given one-time subsidy - should be given
> to the distributor if one exists; could be given to a bulk producer - on
> the condition that the stoves are found useful and used. Metrics of
> efficiency and hourly emission rates are just smoke.
>
> I am glad to read "it is something about family, a cultural thing,
> especially in country side." Gives the lie to physics-only theories of
> supposed "stove science".
>
> Nikhil
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> wrote:
>
> Cheng and all,   (and a mention of Todd Albi).     see below.
>
> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>
> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
>
> Skype:   paultlud    Phone: +1-309-452-7072 <(309)%20452-7072>
>
> Website:  www.drtlud.com
>
> On 11/29/2017 10:15 PM, lh cheng wrote:
>
> Another Chinese little project. Surely, it is cookstove, not heater. Too
> expensive, 1500RMB (230 USD), in rural area, a big number, very big, no one
> buy, not even one, in rural area. For user, many uncertainties to use new
> type of stove. if free of charge, a trustworthy friend who is an expert
> about this stove, that might be fine.
>
> I was wondering about the price of that pellet burner stove.  Yes, it is
> expensive, but expensive is a relative term.   It could be imported into
> America where $230 is inexpensive, but the price here would be so much
> higher and it would then be expensive here.
>
>
>
> stove thing should be open-source ( just like Dr Anderson's Champion Stove
> ), DIY, or made by acquaintance, it is something about family, a cultural
> thing, especially in country side. In city, electricity or LPG is enough.
>
> Is there any prospect in China for DIY.   And what would be the acceptance
> of a stove made with thin metal?   Generalizing, it seems that heavy
> construction of stoves is the standard in China.   Todd Albi might be able
> to shed some light on this.
>
>
>
> a good approach for stove design maybe is that, basic knowledge of stove
> design spread among people, and people help each other.
>
> What do you have in mind?    in the context of China?   I have difficulty
> imagining stove design work in China outside of the factory context.
>
>
>
> concerning "stove intervention", during 1959-1961 in China, more than 30
> millions of people died because a stove intervention movement. and people
> have memories.
>
> Please provide more information about this statement about 30 million
> deaths.
>
> Welcome to the world of the Stoves Listserv.   We appreciate your insights.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> best regards
>
>
>
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