[Stoves] Testing versus stove acceptance (was bue no longer abour Re: China and cookstoves [
Paul Anderson
psanders at ilstu.edu
Sun Dec 3 20:49:07 CST 2017
Stovers,
The diplomatic comment is that there should be BOTH testing AND stove
acceptance.
But if you have to choose only one, the acceptance wins, hands down.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating, not in the receipe.
For a decade since 2005, I worked much on getting good test results for
the TLUD stoves. The NUMBERS. Oh yes, the NUMBERS. Stove camps,
comparisons, measurements,
And I struggled to get a successful TLUD stove project somewhere,
anywhere. But in 2015, I found out about two things that happened
without my direct involvement.
1. In 2015, the GACC and ESMAP published ESMAP Tech Report 007 about
the status of cookstoves. There, in Figure 1, the gasifier stoves were
classified in the category of "Clean Cooking Solutions" and were called
ADVANCED. We can safely assume that appropriately qualitied experts
were making the decisions. It is no longer a case of specific numbers
and Tier x.x designations. Use the numbers if you want to do so, and
there are still some variations between the various models of gasifiers,
but the gasifiers have made it into the big time, and the standard ICS
have not. For clarity, I prepared the "Classification of Stoves....."
document that is faithful to the ESMAP publication.
www.drtlud.com/2017/04/11/classification-stove-technologies-fuels/
If anyone disagrees about that, I refer them to the GACC and ESMAP. And
very favorable test results keep coming in.
2. In late 2015 I found out about the TLUD stove project in progress
since 2012 in Deganga, India. I was a co-author on the report (
www.drtlud.com/deganga2016 ) about that highly successful pilot study
with 11,000 quite satisfied users of TLUD stoves. If acceptance by
users is an issue, I refer people to that report and to visit the
project areas in West Bengal.
So, now the TLUD stoves have both aspects well supported. Testing and
stove acceptance. Of course there is still much more work to be done.
But the major effort has shifted to what Philip and Nikhil have
mentioned, specifically the search for funding for project
implementation. Not for testing. Not for a stove-acceptance study.
(although testing and acceptance are both closely watched in every effort.)
Still working on TLUD stoves.
Paul
Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: www.drtlud.com
On 12/3/2017 10:09 AM, Nikhil Desai wrote:
> Philip:
>
> I had a different reason - one-time subsidies for capital costs are
> easier to design and implement. The main issue is what stoves (and
> pots if possible) are in fact used and whether the running costs are
> affordable for a large segment.
>
> Much of the woodstove design work is stuck in fundamental deceit of
> metrics and testing protocols that do not answer the question whether
> the stove can be expected to be used. (I can design capital subsidies
> for briquetting and pellet-making).
>
> Not a whole lot of good is going to be done by issuing some ISO
> reports. Nor is SE4All going to come up with $4 billion a year I read
> Kyte announced at CCF 2017.
>
> I don't see any tenable theory of change in current EPA/WHO work
> including that in TC-285. Pending that, poor people will have to spend
> $400 for a stove they can be proud of and can use. (EPA wants to
> legislate coal out of existence around the world. Fat chance.)
>
> Nikhil
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Nikhil Desai
> (US +1) 202 568 5831
> /Skype: nikhildesai888/
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 6:23 AM, Philip Lloyd <plloyd at mweb.co.za
> <mailto:plloyd at mweb.co.za>> wrote:
>
> “Capital cost of the stove is a minor issue; the question is
> whether the users like and use the stove.” A community I studied
> carefully had a monthly household income of <$100 yet strove to
> buy a smokey cast iron coal-fired stove costing ~$400. It met all
> their needs – including a higher social status merely because they
> possessed such a stove.
>
> Prof Philip Lloyd
>
> Energy Institute, CPUT
>
> PO Box 1906
>
> Bellville 7535
>
> Tel 021 959 4323
>
> Cell 083 441 5247
>
> PA Nadia 021 959 4330
>
> *From:*Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> <mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>] *On Behalf Of
> *Nikhil Desai
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 2, 2017 1:50 AM
> *To:* Paul Anderson
> *Cc:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] China and cookstoves [Was Re: A
> user-centered, iterative engineering approach for advanced biomass
> cookstove design and development]
>
> Paul:
>
> Capital cost of the stove is a minor issue; the question is
> whether the users like and use the stove. This is why contextual
> definitions matter, because pellet production costs can vary
> greatly depending on the feedstock.
>
> A high capital cost stove can be given one-time subsidy - should
> be given to the distributor if one exists; could be given to a
> bulk producer - on the condition that the stoves are found useful
> and used. Metrics of efficiency and hourly emission rates are just
> smoke.
>
> I am glad to read "it is something about family, a cultural thing,
> especially in country side." Gives the lie to physics-only
> theories of supposed "stove science".
>
> Nikhil
>
> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Paul Anderson
> <psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>> wrote:
>
> Cheng and all, (and a mention of Todd Albi). see below.
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>
> Email:psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>
>
> Skype: paultlud Phone:+1-309-452-7072 <tel:%28309%29%20452-7072>
>
> Website:www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com>
>
>
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