[Stoves] No subsidies in TLUD char peoduction
Frank Shields
franke at cruzio.com
Thu Dec 7 16:59:10 CST 2017
Ron,
What is Blue Biochar? A new one for me.
Thanks
frank
On 12/7/17 4:06 AM, Ronal W. Larson wrote:
> Julien, cc List
>
> Apologies. I hope anyone thinking of responding to my message from
> about 6 hours ago will respond to this one instead.
>
> 1a. Re my first comment on using concrete instead of metal for the
> inner cylinder: I had not thought that through well enough. With a
> concrete or ceramic inner cylinder replacing the present one, there
> would be much less heating of the secondary air which is flowing
> upward between the two cylinders. Newcomers to TLUD design may not
> have noticed that the lowest concrete cylinder had a ring of “notches”
> of maybe 5 or 10 sqcm. Those were the entry points for the essential
> secondary air - which is much more valuable if hot - and that heating
> is obtained at essentially zero cost in this nice Bangladeshi design.
>
> 1b. Long time members of this list will know that there has been a
> lot of discussion of testing and design improvement using throw-away
> tin cans. The steel reactor cylinder being used here (with “24 small
> holes”) probably is thicker than those of (say) the (largest common)
> #10 tin cans (which are about 6”x9” (roughly 15 cm * 22.5 cm)). It
> looks like the present metal cylinder can be readily removed. It
> might be (not sure) that there are enough #10 tin cans being scrapped
> in Dacca to justify the difficulty of cobbling together a loser-cost
> inner cylinder that might work almost as well, but allow a lower
> selling price (with not too frequent future replacements?). Just
> needed to get this in because that #10 tin can is such a marvel of
> modern society. It can’t cost food companies much more than 25 cents
> - and it is strong (difficult for amateurs to cut).
>
>
> 2. Re my second comment below: I also screwed up by not saying more
> on the words “blue biochar”. There is a lot more literature on the
> term “blue carbon” - generally meant in the climate literature to be
> shorthand for mangroves. This is a marvelous tree able to thrive in
> salt and brackish water. I don’t know if there is a way for
> Bangladeshi Akha-using communities to acquire rights to growing and
> harvesting their own designated tidewater hectare - but perhaps the
> Akha team can find a way. Villages could be assigned their own
> off-shore regions, to be relinquished if not used. Some rationing of
> this “land” might become necessary if the idea has merit.
> There are three types of mangroves, each best for declining salinity.,
> as one moves inland. Along with some reeds, there is not much else
> that can grow on this “land” that I believe Bangladesh considers it
> has an excess of.
> Managing these trees for energy could possibly double their usual
> annual output (coppicing/pollarding rather than cutting down entirely)
> - and they of course are wonderful anyway for protecting inland
> property against storms, and are much needed for the young of some fish.
> The above would seem easier to manage that applying the word “blue” to
> waters too deep for mangroves, but there may be some other reasons to
> prefer kelp. I am NOT giving up on the deeper waters off Bangladesh -
> as there is a lot more ocean area available where mangrove culture
> couldn’t occur.
>
> 3. I’d also like to start a rumor that I was the person who stole the
> bag of charcoal. This so that Julien is not himself accused of this
> brilliant way to advertise the merits of biochar and the Akha stove.
>
> Ron
>
>
>> On Dec 6, 2017, at 10:55 PM, Ronal W. Larson
>> <rongretlarson at comcast.net <mailto:rongretlarson at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Julien cc List
>>
>> Thanks for the answers below. Good to hear that both users with and
>> without land see value in making char. No new questions, two comments
>>
>> 1. Re a concrete inner cylinder, you said below “../but their
>> smoke-free combustion was less reliable, and there were some gas
>> burner issues to solve. “/
>> It is not obvious to me why either concern should occur, so I hope
>> stovers everywhere could try this out. Seems likely to be cheaper
>> (can even maybe cast in place) and hopefully longer lived. We know
>> usual cheap steel has a limited life and the best steels are likely
>> both not readily available and expensive.
>> I forgot to congratulate on the two metal swinging “doors” at the
>> bottom. Nice solution.
>>
>> 2. Re fuels, the biochar list has had quite a lot of recent
>> discussion of “blue biochar” - where the source material is kelp or
>> other seaweeds. Bangladesh is possibly already in that business,
>> because of its ocean proximity. This could be a source of employment
>> and a way to save forests while having a feedstock that should bring
>> back needed minerals and fertilizer value. Beating the price of
>> wooden blocks seems possible.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>> On Dec 6, 2017, at 10:05 PM, Julien Winter <winter.julien at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:winter.julien at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello all;
>>>
>>> Thanks for you comments on the Akha-Biochar Project in Bangladesh.
>>>
>>> The cost and payback is not fully worked out, because it will take
>>> about a year for TLUD-biochar ecosystem to become established in
>>> community, and it will continue to evolve. The stove costs about $20
>>> to make, this could be brought down as numbers of stoves increase.
>>> Also, we are still at the stove-prototype stage, so we can expect
>>> some modifications and fine tuning. Payback is developing, as
>>> farmers and gardeners discover the value of biochar for food
>>> production. We have "Farmer Biochar User Groups" that are
>>> conducting field trials, so they can learn from first-hand
>>> experience what biochar can do for them. There are also graduate
>>> students involved in gathering evidence to make recommendations on
>>> optimum application rates. It could take a couple of years at any
>>> one location for the local population to be able to place their own
>>> value on biochar, and what they are willing to pay for it.
>>>
>>> Whether people use the char themselves or sell it depends on their
>>> personal opportunities. There are many families that are landless.
>>> Presently, they see char sales as a way to earn cash or barter. They
>>> think that is a great idea; save fuel, cook faster, AND make
>>> biochar! People with land, especially farmers, see biochar as a way
>>> of making permanent improvements to the quality of their land, so
>>> expect that using biochar could have very substantial impact on
>>> their family's economic well being.
>>>
>>> I have been advocating using biochar in composting, or mixing it
>>> with manure before it goes onto the field. We need work on using it
>>> in human waste management.
>>>
>>> There is no shortage of good soil scientists and agronomists in
>>> Bangladesh to work on biochar technology.
>>>
>>> The outer concrete cylinder of the Akha stove is cast. We have made
>>> stoves with concrete reactors (lined with clay slip), but their
>>> smoke-free combustion was less reliable, and there were some gas
>>> burner issues to solve. That is not to say that concrete reactors
>>> will not work, but they need quite a bit of research and
>>> development, and a laboratory. Metal TLUD reactors, on the other
>>> hand, are well understood. About 24 small holes in the side wall of
>>> the metal reactor make the gasification of chunks of wood more
>>> reliable, and less prone loosing the gas flame. We use cast
>>> concrete (rather than clay) because it is easy to get concrete rings
>>> with flat surfaces at the top and bottom. The concrete components
>>> are made specifically for the Akha. There are many small business
>>> around who can cast concrete.
>>>
>>> Mahbubul has been working with different ratios of Portand cement,
>>> sawdust and biochar dust in the concrete. The more organics, the
>>> lower the heat capacity and heat conductivity of the stove body.
>>> Micro porosity is supposed to make concrete more resistant heat by
>>> providing spaces for minerals to expand into. Obviously there is a
>>> trade-off between adding organics and strength of the concrete.
>>> Different recipes are being tested in the field. It is all trial
>>> and error.
>>>
>>> Mahbubul has also worked with local ceramic artisans to make the
>>> massive stove components from clay. There very skilled people to
>>> work with, and kaolinitic clay, so ceramic components are possible.
>>> The more metal components on the stove that we can replace with
>>> ceramics the better, because all metal in Bangladesh is imported.
>>>
>>> The Akha is about 25% more efficient than a traditional stove. The
>>> Akha has gone through a water-boiling test at a laboratory in Dhaka,
>>> and was about 30% efficient at getting energy from wood into the
>>> water. The main view that the Akha saves 25% of the wood comes from
>>> household feedback. That is what the women tell us.
>>>
>>> The Akha-Biocahr Project has funding for its current intervention
>>> until 2019. It is enough to see if the TLUD-biochar technology will
>>> take root. If it does, then the technology may spread all by itself
>>> as local entrepreneurs see an opportunity. In fact, I think that if
>>> these technologies viable, then they will out of our control and
>>> unstoppable. The 'market' is 25 million homes. All the same, I am
>>> trying to raise money so that Mahbubul and crew remain as proponents
>>> and stakeholders in what they started. There is work to be done in
>>> developing compressed fuels, because there is not enough wood in the
>>> country. We need to monitor the impact on forest cover, and make
>>> sure that poorest households don't become energy-starved if the
>>> price of wood goes up.
>>>
>>> One other thing that will push TLUD-biochar technology forward is
>>> that sea-level rise could flood a third of the country, so soil
>>> productivity needs to increase.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Julien.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Julien Winter
>>> Cobourg, ON, CANADA
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>>
>
>
>
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--
Frank Shields
444 Main Street Apt. 4205
Watsonville, CA 95076
(831) 246-0417 cell
franke at cruzio.com
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