[Stoves] "Those of us who believe that the WBT is critical to stove improvement"

[Harold Annegarn]

Harold Annegarn
Energy Institute
Cape Peninsula University of Technology;
Department of Geography and Environmental Management,
North-West University, Potcheftroom
China Agricultural University, Beijing
Mobile +27 (0)83 628 4210           Office +27
hannegarn at gmail.com <hannegarn at outlook.com>
hannegarn at outlook.com

On 8 December 2017 at 02:09, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
crispinpigott at outlook.com> wrote:

> Dear Nikhil
>
> I will arrive later this morning in a place where fuel efficiency is the
> prime consideration for virtually all stove users. Your hobby horse about
> efficiency is lame in central Asia. ‎It more of a hobbled horse.
>
> Poverty is real and we can double the disposable cash available in a rural
> home during ‎winter merely by switching stoves. I believe this is also the
> case in Ulaanbaatar where the repayment time for a really good stove is 8
> weeks or something - the stove cost was covered by fuel purchase savings in
> 8 to 10 weeks.
>
> The only "cost-free, effort-free, time-free fuel 'collection' system" is
> to tap into a District Heating system‎ undetected. If you have to pay for
> heat, in Bishkek it costs $8 per month. That is for the urban poor and
> elite. In rural areas heat costs the truly poor more than $50-100 a month.
> We have different definitions of 'free'.
>
> Regards
> Crispin in the West end of the East
>
>
> Andrew:
>
> Vehicle fleet buyers may think differently.
>
> As in the case of stoves, operating hours and timing are up to the
> user. Which is why there is a "context" in which EPA or other
> regulators pursue emission standards for equipment such as diesel
> vehicles.
>
> If you recall, my primary objection to all this "standards" game is
> that a) there is no service standard (boiling water is not a proxy for
> anything) and b) there is no objective that these standards can
> demonstrably serve.
>
> For diesel vehicles, there is a service standard -- a certain range of
> user desires and required behavior (such as picking up and maintaining
> speed). And there is an objective -- improvement of air quality in
> particular locations.
>
> In addition, the authority to set and enforce standards is statutorily
> given, and development and issuance of standards is done in an open
> process (in North America and Western Europe of a certain period when
> I used to work on such matters). There is considerable amount of data
> collection and analysis, air basin modeling, science of air pollution
> and public health. And consultations with the users and impacted
> populations, any of whom can take the regulator to court on the
> specific standard proposed or the way it is enforced. (I do have
> lengthy experience in legal and legislative fights on such matters).
>
> NONE of this obtains in the case of "international standards" for
> "cookstoves in the developing world".
>
> That the tests of diesel engines do not "relate closely to real use"
> is an issue addressed long ago in the science of air pollution and
> health, at least in the US. If I remember correctly, basically the
> answer was, "When we do simulations, the projected emissions and
> air-mixing patterns in the areas under consideration show that our
> test basis is adequate." I don't remember the history on vehicular
> emissions, except as the standards related to the overall
> Non-Attainment of Air Quality Standards.
>
> Which is another wrinkle -- diesel engine standards are NOT
> promulgated independent of all other influences (including natural) on
> air quality. WHO folks would have you believe that a fuel switchover
> guarantees a particular,quantified level of indoor air quality
> improvement, based on actual studies. (They obviously don't explicitly
> ask you to believe that, but that is their intent.  Glibly marketing
> deceit to gullible people is one way of promoting careers).
>
> I do not impugn the motives of people involved; I have found no
> evidence yet except that the process itself is evidently compromised,
> possibly corrupt (but not so, since no law applies).
>
> All I can say is that blind and lame people assessing an elephant
> cannot diagnose what ails the elephant or prescribe proper cure
> (unless they had been trained in elephant physiology by books).
>
> The path to hell is littered with good intentions.
>
> Why, even Crispin so religiously believes that efficiencies of free
> fuel matter. No matter what the cost of an efficient stove.
>
> What can an un-compromised bystander such as you can do? I suggest
> asking for a database on service standards (cooking practices and
> seasonal, locational variations), and then asking for the evidence
> that the performance metrics so fervently pursued by all are based on
> any theory with an evidentiary base. (Not the WHO attributability of
> premature deaths.)
>
> Nikhil
>
>
> > On Dec 7, 2017, at 12:06 PM, Andrew Heggie <aj.heggie at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 7 December 2017 at 02:54, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
> > <crispinpigott at outlook.com> wrote:
> >
> >> The protocol used to test NO emissions in diesels was 'gamed' rather
> easily. Adopting a protocol that is difficult to game would be a better
> option.
> >
> > It's an interesting concept in itself; that countries stipulate a
> > standard for engines to reach before they can be sold into a highly
> > sophisticated market with high standards for testing and:
> >
> > 1: a major player can distort the tests
> >
> > 2: the tests don't relate closely to real use anyway
> >
> > I haven't bought a new car so it hasn't affected my choice, so why
> > should a stove tested to any standard affect a consumer?
> >
> > Andrew
> >
>
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