[Stoves] stove
Frank Shields
franke at cruzio.com
Mon Dec 11 23:44:36 CST 2017
Dear Philip,
There may be a lot more things we can determine once we get control of
the six variables And that will depend on how much control we can get.
Even the discussion Paul and Crispin are having as the CO and CO2
reactions will need control of the biomass properties and packing before
answers (with help with using helium surrogate) is determined. And we
must be using real wild biomass prepared for the combustion chamber or
the results will mean nothing when the stove and test results are
delivered to the receiving site.
I don't know if we can get the variables controlled enough to do what
you suggest about determining high and low power possibilities. That may
be left to Cecil and his ethnography work to see what people like best.
But I do feel certain that nothing will be done (like for the past ten
years) until we do get control of the variables. This is not an
engineering problem - like it has been treated. Simply going from
biomass fuel > to > completed task. And how well people like using the
stove.
Regards
Frank Shields
Gabilan Laboratory
On 12/11/17 8:50 PM, Philip Lloyd wrote:
>
> Dear Frank
>
> One aspect I felt you had left out was the power at which the stove
> was operating. It affects many things. Just boiling water, at low
> power you may never get past the nucleate boiling phase; at high
> power. The transition to film boiling can be slow or abrupt. Add
> something to the water, and heat transfer again changes – and if what
> you have added is like starch, then the viscous properties of the pot
> contents will change with time.
>
> Philip
>
> Energy Institute, CPUT
>
> PO Box 1906
>
> Bellville 7535
>
> Tel 021 959 4323
>
> Cell 083 441 5247
>
> PA Nadia 021 959 4330
>
> *From:*Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Frank Shields
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 12, 2017 6:14 AM
> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] stove
>
> Hi Michael, Stovers;
>
> This is a good example where the 6-Box system would be useful.
>
> Set up the system so it makes good tea. The process is to control the
> variables and modify one at a time to improve the process. There are
> lots of steps you can do but would take some time, test methods and a
> little equipment. All simple but not good at this time. Once you have
> a good fuel, good technique, and can produce a good cup of tea I
> suggest the following:
>
> Box-1) Observe the fuel for size, moisture, cleanliness etc.
>
> Box - 2: Record the process loading the combustion chamber.
>
> Box- 3: Record the combustion chamber; stove model etc.
>
> Box-4: Establish info regarding the utensils used; metal, size,
> heavy-light etc.
>
> Box-5: Record the process; stirring, amount of water, amount of tea,
> sugar added etc.
>
> Box-6: Determine a good repeatable Completion Point. Perhaps water
> just starts to boil or i can hold my hand on the side of the pot for
> just one second.
>
> You need to know what an improvement would look like for you. Quicker
> tea but not care of amount of fuel. Save on fuel, walk away with less
> manipulation, air quality, amount of char left, quality of char
> produced, etc. Whats important is what the end user decides important.
>
> Now all steps are controlled and should be repeatable. You can change
> one Box at a time and see if that improves the process. Use dryer wood
> or stir more frequently. Use a lighter pot or less water. Add wood
> more frequent in smaller quantities - try to get the best conditions.
>
> Because no-one else is doing the same system you will not be able to
> compare to other systems. But you might be able to improve your own.
> And there are lots of measurements for the fuel that can be made (not
> described here) but use simple test methods and no need for a real
> lab. Perhaps just some basic equipment.
>
> Frank
>
> Gabilan Laboratory
>
> On 12/11/17 6:24 PM, Michael N Trevor wrote:
>
> Lets look at this another way.
>
> NO lab,
>
> NO equipment
>
> How do I test?
>
> I thinking how well it cooks my tea is a good tool
>
> On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 1:56 PM, Xavier Brandao
> <xav.brandao at gmail.com <mailto:xav.brandao at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Dear Kirk,
>
> Thanks a lot for contributing to the debate, and for sharing your
> story.
>
> Now this is really interesting.
>
>
> You developed a stove that is, from what I read, highly performing.
>
> You needed to use a lab protocol to develop it, you used the WBT.
> You say it allowed you to improve the stove, to the level it is today.
>
> /“Perhaps the same results could have been achieved without the
> WBT, but I could not have measured them, so there might have been
> changes in the stove that made no improvement because I couldn’t
> test them. A lot of luck would have been involved.”/
>
> You could have improved your stove while using another lab
> protocol. There are other lab protocols allowing to measure the
> performance without relying on luck, of course there are.
>
> The questions that I think of: were some of the results of the WBT
> useful, some other misleading? All of them useful? Did you develop
> and improve your stove thank to, or despite the WBT? Would you
> have made your stove better with another lab protocol, or worse?
>
> It would be great to compare the way you did the testing with the
> WBT, and the way you would have done it with another lab protocol.
> And see how results may have differed.
>
>
> Can people working with other protocols on the List react?
>
>
> Best,
>
>
> Xavier
>
> *De :*Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> <mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>] *De la part de*
> Kirk H.
> *Envoyé :* mardi 12 décembre 2017 02:12
> *À :* Ronal W. Larson; Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> *Objet :* Re: [Stoves] stove
>
> Ron and All,
>
> I did use the WBT to develop the Wonderwerk 316 stove. It was
> however only part of the overall testing. Mainly I used it to
> test changes in the stove intended to get more of the heat
> produced by the stove to the surface of the pot, and less heat
> lost out the sides of the stove. I used the same
> pot/skirt/pot-stand combination through all of this part of the
> testing, so the WBT showed only the results of the changes in the
> stove. I was not so concerned about the geometry of the cooking
> surface because it will change for different uses; pot, frying
> pan, wok, plancha, or whatever. I was concerned only with getting
> the most possible heat that is produced by the stove to the
> cooking surface. Perhaps the same results could have been achieved
> without the WBT, but I could not have measured them, so there
> might have been changes in the stove that made no improvement
> because I couldn’t test them. A lot of luck would have been involved.
>
> This way of using the WBT was only at Aprovecho. At Berkely we
> were testing the stove as designed at Aprovecho, not making changes.
>
> Kirk H.
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>
> for Windows 10
>
> *From: *Ronal W. Larson <mailto:rongretlarson at comcast.net>
> *Sent: *Monday, December 11, 2017 3:32 PM
> *To: *Kirk H. <mailto:gkharris316 at comcast.net>
> *Subject: *Re: stove
>
> Kirk:
>
> Nice.
>
> The stove list has had a lot of disagreement about the water
> boiling test (WBT). Can you say that you used that a lot to make
> iterative improvements? And eventually of course at Apro and
> Berkeley. Any way that today’s results could have been made
> without the WBT?
>
> Ron
>
> On Dec 11, 2017, at 3:44 PM, Kirk H. <gkharris316 at comcast.net
> <mailto:gkharris316 at comcast.net>> wrote:
>
> Sent fromMail
> <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>for Windows 10
>
> <Kirk stove.mp4>
>
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> --
> Frank Shields
> 444 Main Street Apt. 4205
> Watsonville, CA 95076
> (831) 246-0417 cell
> franke at cruzio.com <mailto:franke at cruzio.com>
>
>
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--
Frank Shields
444 Main Street Apt. 4205
Watsonville, CA 95076
(831) 246-0417 cell
franke at cruzio.com
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