[Stoves] Fwd: News: On-the-ground research reveals true impact of cook-stove emissions in India

Sun Dec 17 12:08:59 CST 2017

Dear Ron:

I said no such thing. What nonsense. 

Grant's PhD thesis - as I remembered it and as I confirmed it last night when I gave you the link to it - was about protocols of measurement, not about health consequences, though he may have mentioned that pollutant emissions lead to diseases. 

I have no problem accepting that emissions lead to disease, just that not enough is known empirically about the pathways and quantification of relative risk. 

When I confirmed my suspicion - after having stopped reading the emissions and health literature around 2012 - that WHO had no data, just junky models that were claimed to be "the best science can do," and the results touted as "balancing robustness vs. cost," I had to call out the conceit and deceit of WHO. 

I had ignored the HAP GBD numbers, may even have 

Nikhil Desai
Skype: nikhildesai888

> On Dec 17, 2017, at 6:23 AM, Ronal W. Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> Grant: cc list
> 
> 	Sorry to bother you.  
> 
> 	I am following up on Crispin’s ”Sure” below. 
> 
> 	 My version of the argument is that you believe there are serious health hazards to traditional cookstove use.  Nikhil, apparently supported by Crispin, has offered your thesis as proof there is no proven link. (This is my version of the argument; they can give another.)
> 
> 	I recommend ignoring the tie below to SELF; that tie also makes no sense re health issues related to smoke. Not sure why all the extraneous links were felt necessary.
> 
> 	I will separately forward my email preceding this one.  I quoted the first two sentences which I thought were enough to disprove you were on Nikhil and Crispin’s side of this argument.  Your sentences are:
> 	“Approximately 2,500 million people are exposed daily to emissions from biofuel-burning cooking sites.   Respiratory disease, which is the main cause of death in developing communities, is linked to these emissions.”
> 
> 	The main question,  I think,  is whether somewhere in your thesis you argue against these two sentences.   I assume Crispin and/or Nikhil will correct me if I am asking the wrong question.
> 
> 	I’m not sure why Crispin thinks I am lying when I say I have read your thesis and asserts I won’t read what I asked Nikhil to supply two other sentences from it.  Might you and I have ever communicated about your thesis?
> 
> 	I am now deciding how to ask his permission re his last line:  “… you shall hereinafter never again claim or even hint… “   Any guidance?
> 
> Ron
> 
> ps  to stove list readers,  I urge visiting Grant’s site: www.hedon.info  and signing up there for “Boiling Point” - perhaps the best journal on these stove topics..
> 
> 
> 
>> Begin forwarded message:
>> 
>> From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispinpigott at outlook.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] News: On-the-ground research reveals true impact of cook-stove emissions in India
>> Date: December 17, 2017 at 12:06:53 AM MST
>> To: "'Stoves (stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org)'" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> 
>> Dear Ron
>> 
>> If you can’t be bother to read one of the first PhD theses by someone investigating stove test methods and impacts of emissions, how will you even understand what Nikhil is talking about?
>> 
>>> [RWL3   I met Grant in Johannesburg in 2002 and probably read it then, because I thought he looked quite knowledgeable  I stopped reading the Thesis this time after the first two sentences…
>> 
>> As Nikhil has pointed out repeatedly, you can’t discuss what you have not read.
>> 
>>> How about giving one or two sentences that supports your reading of this thesis?
>> 
>> Why? You won’t read it for ideological reasons.
>> 
>>> Shall we waste Grant’s time by asking him whether he supports your version of stove health issues?
>> 
>> Sure. Let’s ask him.
>> 
>>> I also can’t believe you are asking me to go Kirk’s website to prove something on stove health issues that supports your non-causation, anti-WHO theory.
>> 
>> Nikhil is not against the WHO. He is against untestable claims supported by defective models and invalid arguments. So am I. That’s why we are both critics of metrics that are selected on the basis of ideological convenience or, in the case of the IWA,  ass-covering. Nikhil does not have a theory of non-causation – you made that up – it is the WHO and EPA that have an untested theory of causation. WHO’s theory is based on an other theory of equitoxicity (EPA) and instant homogeneous distribution of PM (Berkeley) from stove fires, something contradicted by the WHO’s own internal discussions record and model testing.
>> 
>> Those making claims have a responsibility to provide proof of their theories of causation. Proposed mitigations require an articulated theory of change so proofs can be made and effectiveness judged.  The theory that replacing wood stoves with LPG stoves reduces exposure to PM2.5 in poor communities has so far shown that the ambient PM2.5 dominates any exposure to stove smoke. That is valuable, because it may be far cheaper and more effective to control ambient air pollution that to supply KPG stoves and fuel indefinitely.
>> 
>>>> 4.  The reason I don't like the IWA metrics of efficiency and PM2.5 is, there is no statement of the problem and there is no theory of change. Prove me the alleged worldwide deforestation and desertification, climate change, ill health, and sexual violence caused by inefficient and smoky use of solid fuels.
>> 
>>> RWL4:   Please cite something anybody ever said to support that really curious argument.
>> 
>> Well I can do that easily. Here below is a recent appeal (yesterday) from the Solar Electric Light Fund that has it all in one appeal for money: Hollywood, hatred for Harvey Weinstein, AIDS, fear of the dark, women as perpetual victims of perpetual predator men, saviour stoves, dreaded solid fuels, leaving the foxhole to cross no man's land in desperate need of water, hints of child molestation and abuse, and never forget to mention that continent of despair: 'Africa', after all, it’s Christmas.
>> 
>> Ron, you shall hereinafter never again claim or even hint that stoves are not promoted using, “that really curious argument”. They are. It is not ‘curious’, it is obscene.
>> 
>> Regards
>> Crispin
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>> December 14, 2017
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>> 
>> Using the Power of the Sun
>> to Reduce Violence Against Women
>> 
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>> Dear Friends,[http://files.constantcontact.com/545ab2b9301/d72378b4-f8d9-41d5-b5a8-a8ee6fd8119e.png]
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>> For the first time in American history, legions of survivors are being encouraged to speak out and bear witness to their experiences of sexual harassment and assault. Those among us with a moral conscience respond to these sordid accounts with revulsion for the perpetrators and anger on behalf of those who have suffered. But our anger cannot stop here.
>> 
>> There are millions more women and girls without the means to tell the world that they have been assaulted and raped, especially in arid, Sub-Saharan countries where they often have to walk, unprotected, for miles to get water in remote areas. Fearing retribution for speaking out against their attackers, most remain silent. In addition to suffering physical, mental, and emotional damage, many end up pregnant and infected with sexually transmitted diseases. For most of the young girls, their lives have been irrevocably changed, offering little hope for their future. Why is there silence instead of outrage for these women and girls? Most people in industrialized societies do not know these conditions exist. If you are one of them, that changes today when you read this. Our anger needs to translate into action.
>> In 2018, SELF is planning to confront
> <winmail.dat>
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