[Stoves] Fwd: News: On-the-ground research reveals true impact of cook-stove emissions in India

Wed Dec 27 10:18:29 CST 2017

Dear Ron

I've been travelling then trying to recover from a bad cold so haven't been
able to read this thread till now. Anyway it is a bit difficult to follow
the conversation, and whatever I say is likely to be misinformed one way or
another.

I can only make the observation that my thesis wasn't about health, and any
information it contains about the links between stoves emissions and health
need to be seen through a 1997 lens - when it was written. There have been
some welcome developments in our knowledge about these links in the 20
years since then.

Best wishes
Grant

Grant Ballard-Tremeer

Director
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On 17 December 2017 at 21:07, Ronal W. Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
wrote:

> Grant:  cc list
>
> Sorry to have bothered you.  I still do not why Nikhil brought up your
> thesis in a conversation that was only about health impacts - nor why
> Crispin thought I should write.  Don’t bother to respond.
>
> Ron
>
>
>
> On Dec 17, 2017, at 8:59 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
> crispinpigott at outlook.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Grant
>
> Ron has misrepresented my view and I prefer that I present it myself. I
> believe Nikhil can represent himself as well.
>
> Regards
> Crispin
>
>
>
> Grant: cc list
>
> Sorry to bother you.
>
> I am following up on Crispin’s ”Sure” below.
>
>  My version of the argument is that you believe there are serious health
> hazards to traditional cookstove use.  Nikhil, apparently supported by
> Crispin, has offered your thesis as proof there is no proven link. (This is
> my version of the argument; they can give another.)
>
> I recommend ignoring the tie below to SELF; that tie also makes no sense
> re health issues related to smoke. Not sure why all the extraneous links
> were felt necessary.
>
> I will separately forward my email preceding this one.  I quoted the first
> two sentences which I thought were enough to disprove you were on Nikhil
> and Crispin’s side of this argument.  Your sentences are:
> *“Approximately 2,500 million people are exposed daily to emissions from
> biofuel-burning cooking sites.   Respiratory disease, which is the
> main cause of death in developing communities, is linked to these
> emissions.”*
>
> The main question,  I think,  is whether somewhere in your thesis you
> argue against these two sentences.   I assume Crispin and/or Nikhil will
> correct me if I am asking the wrong question.
>
> I’m not sure why Crispin thinks I am lying when I say I have read your
> thesis and asserts I won’t read what I asked Nikhil to supply two other
> sentences from it.  Might you and I have ever communicated about your
> thesis?
>
> I am now deciding how to ask his permission re his last line:  “… *you
> shall hereinafter never again claim or even hint…* “   Any guidance?
>
> Ron
>
> ps  to stove list readers,  I urge visiting Grant’s site: www.hedon.info
> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hedon.info&data=02%7C01%7C%7C74b20bce982e4e98b6d108d5454165ed%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636491069536796403&sdata=Es26XgWvONIi%2FlOfrVlD9Xwmc4LVO0zUBujiRRWAYtQ%3D&reserved=0>
>   and signing up there for “Boiling Point” - perhaps the best journal on
> these stove topics..
>
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> *From: *Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispinpigott at outlook.com>
> *Subject: Re: [Stoves] News: On-the-ground research reveals true impact of
> cook-stove emissions in India*
> *Date: *December 17, 2017 at 12:06:53 AM MST
> *To: *"'Stoves (stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org)'" <
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Reply-To: *Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>
> Dear Ron
>
> If you can’t be bother to read one of the first PhD theses by someone
> investigating stove test methods and impacts of emissions, how will you
> even understand what Nikhil is talking about?
>
>
> [RWL3   I met Grant in Johannesburg in 2002 and probably read it then,
> because I thought he looked quite knowledgeable  I stopped reading the
> Thesis this time after the first two sentences…
>
>
> As Nikhil has pointed out repeatedly, you can’t discuss what you have not
> read.
>
>
> How about giving one or two sentences that supports your reading of this
> thesis?
>
>
> Why? You won’t read it for ideological reasons.
>
>
> Shall we waste Grant’s time by asking him whether he supports your version
> of stove health issues?
>
>
> Sure. Let’s ask him.
>
>
> I also can’t believe you are asking me to go Kirk’s website to prove
> something on stove health issues that supports your non-causation, anti-WHO
> theory.
>
>
> Nikhil is not against the WHO. He is against untestable claims supported
> by defective models and invalid arguments. So am I. That’s why we are both
> critics of metrics that are selected on the basis of ideological
> convenience or, in the case of the IWA,  ass-covering. Nikhil does not have
> a theory of non-causation – you made that up – it is the WHO and EPA that
> have an untested theory of causation. WHO’s theory is based on an other
> theory of equitoxicity (EPA) and instant homogeneous distribution of PM
> (Berkeley) from stove fires, something contradicted by the WHO’s own
> internal discussions record and model testing.
>
> Those making claims have a responsibility to provide proof of their
> theories of causation. Proposed mitigations require an articulated theory
> of change so proofs can be made and effectiveness judged.  The theory that
> replacing wood stoves with LPG stoves reduces exposure to PM2.5 in poor
> communities has so far shown that the ambient PM2.5 dominates any exposure
> to stove smoke. That is valuable, because it may be far cheaper and more
> effective to control ambient air pollution that to supply KPG stoves and
> fuel indefinitely.
>
>
> 4.  The reason I don't like the IWA metrics of efficiency and PM2.5 is,
> there is no statement of the problem and there is no theory of change.
> Prove me the alleged worldwide deforestation and desertification, climate
> change, ill health, and sexual violence caused by inefficient and smoky use
> of solid fuels.
>
>
>
> RWL4:   Please cite something anybody ever said to support that really
> curious argument.
>
>
> Well I can do that easily. Here below is a recent appeal (yesterday) from
> the Solar Electric Light Fund that has it all in one appeal for money:
> Hollywood, hatred for Harvey Weinstein, AIDS, fear of the dark, women as
> perpetual victims of perpetual predator men, saviour stoves, dreaded solid
> fuels, leaving the foxhole to cross no man's land in desperate need of
> water, hints of child molestation and abuse, and never forget to mention
> that continent of despair: 'Africa', after all, it’s Christmas.
>
> Ron, you shall hereinafter never again claim or even hint that stoves are
> not promoted using, “that really curious argument”. They are. It is not
> ‘curious’, it is obscene.
>
> Regards
> Crispin
>
>
>
>
>
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> December 14, 2017
>
>
> Using the Power of the Sun
> to Reduce Violence Against Women
>
>
> Dear Friends,[http://files.constantcontact.com/545ab2b9301/d72378b4-f8d9-
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>
> For the first time in American history, legions of survivors are being
> encouraged to speak out and bear witness to their experiences of sexual
> harassment and assault. Those among us with a moral conscience respond to
> these sordid accounts with revulsion for the perpetrators and anger on
> behalf of those who have suffered. But our anger cannot stop here.
>
> There are millions more women and girls without the means to tell the
> world that they have been assaulted and raped, especially in arid,
> Sub-Saharan countries where they often have to walk, unprotected, for miles
> to get water in remote areas. Fearing retribution for speaking out against
> their attackers, most remain silent. In addition to suffering physical,
> mental, and emotional damage, many end up pregnant and infected with
> sexually transmitted diseases. For most of the young girls, their lives
> have been irrevocably changed, offering little hope for their future. Why
> is there silence instead of outrage for these women and girls? Most people
> in industrialized societies do not know these conditions exist. If you are
> one of them, that changes today when you read this. Our anger needs to
> translate into action.
> In 2018, SELF is planning to confront this serious problem with our most
> powerful tool: solar electricity. We will install a pilot project in a
> Ugandan village to power clean water stations and street lights-keeping the
> women and girls in well-lit areas close to home. We will also work with
> partners to provide solar cookers (to avoid wood collection in the bush)
> and to develop an educational outreach program. Next to the Solar Market
> Garden program we first devised for Benin 10 years ago-combining solar
> pumps with drip irrigation to improve food security-this may be one of our
> most ambitious projects yet. When the Ugandan pilot project is proven
> successful, we will seek to have it replicated throughout Sub-Saharan
> Africa.
>
> Please help SELF mobilize our resources to launch this major humanitarian
> endeavor. When you are deciding where to put your philanthropic dollars
> during this giving season, I urge you to invest in helping us bring clean
> water directly to villages to spare women and girls the unspeakable threats
> to their well-being.
>
> Thank you,
>
>
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