[Stoves] Fuel qualities as the limiting factor, and getting rid of WBT (Was: Frank on helium surrogate)
Frank Shields
franke at cruzio.com
Mon Jan 30 19:42:05 CST 2017
Dear Crispin,
There is a lot more that can be done with pure science when regarding stoves. And you support that with everything you say below.
> When people complain that ‘the stove cooks too slowly'
Box 1: It could be the fuel; chemistry or physical properties
Box 2: perhaps not supplied to the chamber fast enough,
Box 3: The combustion needs more primary holes more insulation, more air flow around staked fuel,
Box 4; Pot material and thickness
Box 5; task needs more frequent stirring or flipping,
Box 6; Problem solved - task ends quickly
How can you boil that down to one number? and what does that number mean?
> making sugar. <snip> She only uses wet fuel. <snip> She doesn’t need instructions on how to burn fuel, she needs a stove with strongly heated primary air and a low level of excess air, which she definitely didn’t have
If no-one is going to pre-dry it for her than she needs a stove designed to burn wet fuel. The limits on moisture is one of the tests I suggest to find the range of moisture that a stove can handle with that type of fuel.
> “Don't bring us ANY stoves that require us to chop the fuel into small pieces!"
I’m thinking Richard Stanley could put a knife blade on the end of his press and that would cut the fuel nicely and easily. Even fun to use.
Crispin - I do not see a direction you are heading that will reduce smoke. Or do much of anything. There is no plan.
Regards
Frank
> On Jan 30, 2017, at 5:07 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispinpigott at outlook.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Frank
>
> Your second paragraph is the fork in the road: heave to the side with pure research or heave to the other and let the community lead.
>
> Both are well-traveled paths, but those picking one rarely also travel the other. In a sense we have gone about as far as we can without consulting the whole map.
>
> If you want to get where you are going, you have to know where you are.
>
> We discussed a little bit the metric of the heat flow rate into the pot as an indicator of acceptable cooking power. When people complain that 'the stove cooks too slowly' (a common enough problem for 'improved stoves') and they really mean that the rate of heat flow is not high enough to cook at an adequate speed. In short, the observation can be reduced to a hard number that is independent of the pot size, pot contents and fuel type.
>
> People have opinions as to what constitutes 'a good stove'. If the new stove has positive features and no critical demerits it might be adopted.
>
> I was interviewing a Javan woman making sugar. I asked her about the fuel which was bubbling and hissing from the ends of the sticks. Why was she burning such wet fuel?
>
> She replied that if the fuel is dry, she sells it. She only uses wet fuel. She was well aware that dry fuel was better and made some income from the fact that everyone else was also aware of that.
>
> She had an inexhaustible fuel supply close at hand. She chose to optimise her lifestyle by burning what she couldn't sell.
>
> She doesn't need instructions on how to burn fuel, she needs a stove with strongly heated primary air and a low level of excess air, which she definitely didn't have.
>
> The group of women I met to talk about 'improved stoves' started off the conversation with, "Don't bring us ANY stoves that require us to chop the fuel into small pieces!"
>
> How's that, then? Right out of the starting gate. They demanded I listen to them. One response was the Keren Super Nova which is now in production with major fuel savings, particularly at low power, we are told by the heavy users. It sells for 6 times the price of the baseline stoves.
>
> It burns the same fuels, it is locally made and it lasts a lot longer. Apparently that is 'benefit' enough to attract a customer base.
>
> Regards
> Crispin in BDS City
>
>
> Dear Crispin,
>
>
>> How is this: the anthropologist comes from the field and tells you that the community will not spend time preparing fuel, and you can only plan on burning stick fuel.
>>
> There is no problem attempting to sell a stove that needs novel fuel, or a processing method. But if you are told from the start not to bother, they will refuse to use it, it has to be treated as valuable information.
>
> So does that mean if you have a neat little pile of cut and dry fuel that they will ignore it and use the damp old smoldering fuel they have always used? And is one person speaking for the community (for the World)? Is no-one willing and wanting to live out of the smoke? Do they like smoke and damp fuel?
>
> But aside from the village you mention we still should be finding the best we can do about combusting biomass for cooking. If we raise kids on prepared and dry biomass cooking without smoke we may find they will not like smoky rooms, different than their parents. They may be willing to prepare fuel. All the above is nothing I know about.
>
> Regards
>
> Frank
>
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>> On Jan 30, 2017, at 3:51 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispinpigott at outlook.com <mailto:crispinpigott at outlook.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Frank
>>
>> How is this: the anthropologist comes from the field and tells you that the community will not spend time preparing fuel, and you can only plan on burning stick fuel.
>>
>> There is no problem attempting to sell a stove that needs novel fuel, or a processing method. But if you are told from the start not to bother, they will refuse to use it, it has to be treated as valuable information.
>>
>> When an industrial designer assess what to create, the customer sets the parameters. Apple famously held that people don't know what they want yet, they have to be told. Well stovers, a lot of cooks know what they want and what they don't.
>>
>> I think that's a good place to start. The designer can optimise the fuel chopping and sizing all they want: the community will refuse it.
>>
>> We can't work in isolation from the market. That's the point.
>>
>> Regards
>> Crispin
>>
>>
>> Dear Crispin,
>>
>> I agree with the stove designer/selector criteria for guiding the process making a stove. But before taking it into the field I suggest it be tested using the biomass available and biomass optimized for that stove. That to be included in the instructions. I realize people are going to use the stove as they wish. But knowing how to prepare the fuel for optimum performance is a start.
>>
>> Preparing the fuel for stoves takes time and energy and may seem silly and likely not going to be done. BUT if the fuel is the variable that now needs control we will never get cleaner stoves until this is done - no matter what stove they use. I think a process that sizes and dries, splits, chips - whatever the available fuel before use is the best next step to cleaner stoves.
>>
>> Frank
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>>> On Jan 29, 2017, at 2:41 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispinpigott at outlook.com <mailto:crispinpigott at outlook.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Frank
>>>
>>> "If we don’t we are back to only the connected having the opportunity to market their stoves and all other backyard tinsnips designs don’t have a chance. Once that list is made you can add on all the additional requirements you want. The stove passes or doesn’t make the second list."
>>>
>>> I think we are cleverer than that. It is quite reasonable to set before a stove designer/selector a set of 10 criteria of which half are hard science numbers or ranges and the other half are soft science requirements.
>>>
>>> A good designer can then create or pick a few candidate technologies for verification and trials.
>>>
>>> The trials would be performed by experienced cooks and product reviewers from the target community. Cecil wants it to go in stages of 'weeding' and he wants it done before the technical evaluation. He often points out that the most acceptable and widely adopted product may not be the ones with the best technical specifications.
>>>
>>> That is why Toyota sells more cars than Lamborghini.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Crispin
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>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Frank
>> Frank Shields
>> Gabilan Laboratory
>> Keith Day Company, Inc.
>> 1091 Madison Lane
>> Salinas, CA 93907
>> (831) 246-0417 cell
>> (831) 771-0126 office
>> fShields at keithdaycompany.com <mailto:fShields at keithdaycompany.com>
>>
>>
>>
>> franke at cruzio.com <mailto:franke at cruzio.com>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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> Thanks
>
> Frank
> Frank Shields
> Gabilan Laboratory
> Keith Day Company, Inc.
> 1091 Madison Lane
> Salinas, CA 93907
> (831) 246-0417 cell
> (831) 771-0126 office
> fShields at keithdaycompany.com <mailto:fShields at keithdaycompany.com>
>
>
>
> franke at cruzio.com <mailto:franke at cruzio.com>
>
>
>
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> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
Thanks
Frank
Frank Shields
Gabilan Laboratory
Keith Day Company, Inc.
1091 Madison Lane
Salinas, CA 93907
(831) 246-0417 cell
(831) 771-0126 office
fShields at keithdaycompany.com
franke at cruzio.com
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