[Stoves] Fuel qualities as the limiting factor, and getting rid of WBT (Was: Frank on helium surrogate)

Tue Jan 31 00:34:39 CST 2017

“One response was the Keren Super Nova which is now in production with major
fuel savings, particularly at low power, we are told by the heavy users. It
sells for 6 times the price of the baseline stoves” A point I have often
made – meet the user’s requirements, and price barely enters the equation.
Those in pursuit of affordability please note.

Prof Philip Lloyd

Energy Institute, CPUT

SARETEC, Sachs Circle

Bellville

Tel 021 959 4323

Cell 083 441 5247

PA Nadia 021 959 4330

From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of
Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 3:07 AM
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Fuel qualities as the limiting factor, and getting rid
of WBT (Was: Frank on helium surrogate)

Dear Frank

Your second paragraph is the fork in the road: heave to the side with pure
research or heave to the other and let the community lead. 

Both are well-traveled paths, but those picking one rarely also travel the
other. In a sense we have gone about as far as we can without consulting the
whole map. 

If you want to get where you are going, you have to know where you are. 

We discussed a little bit the ‎metric of the heat flow rate into the pot as
an indicator of acceptable cooking power. When people complain that 'the
stove cooks too slowly' (a common enough problem for 'improved stoves') and
they really mean that the rate of heat flow is not high enough to cook at an
adequate speed. In short, the observation can be reduced to a hard number
that is independent of the pot size, pot contents and fuel type. 

People have opinions as to what constitutes 'a good stove'. If the new stove
has positive features and no critical demerits ‎it might be adopted. 

I was interviewing a Javan woman making sugar. I asked her about the fuel
which was bubbling and hissing from the ends of the sticks. Why was she
burning such wet fuel?

She replied that if the fuel is dry, she sells it. She only uses wet fuel.
She was well aware that dry fuel was better ‎and made some income from the
fact that everyone else was also aware of that. 

She had an inexhaustible fuel supply close at hand. She chose to optimise
her lifestyle by burning what she couldn't sell. 

She doesn't need instructions on how to burn fuel, she needs a stove with
strongly heated primary air and a low level of excess air, which she
definitely didn't have. 

The group of women I met to talk about 'improved stoves' started off the
conversation with, "Don't bring us ANY stoves that require us to chop the
fuel into small pieces!"

How's that, then?‎ Right out of the starting gate. They demanded I listen to
them. One response was the Keren Super Nova which is now in production with
major fuel savings, particularly at low power, we are told by the heavy
users. It sells for 6 times the price of the baseline stoves. 

It burns the same fuels, it is locally made and it lasts a lot longer.
Apparently that is 'benefit' enough to attract a customer base. 

Regards 

Crispin in BDS City

Dear Crispin, 

How is this: ‎the anthropologist comes from the field and tells you that the
community will not spend time preparing fuel, and you can only plan on
burning stick fuel. 

There is no problem attempting to sell a stove that needs novel fuel, or a
processing method. But if you are told from the start not to bother, they
will refuse to use it, it has to be treated as valuable information. 

So does that mean if you have a neat little pile of cut and dry fuel that
they will ignore it and use the damp old smoldering fuel they have always
used? And is one person speaking for the community (for the World)? Is
no-one willing and wanting to live out of the smoke? Do they like smoke and
damp fuel? 

But aside from the village you mention we still should be finding the best
we can do about combusting biomass for cooking. If we raise kids on prepared
and dry biomass cooking without smoke we may find they will not like smoky
rooms, different than their parents. They may be willing to prepare fuel.
All the above is nothing I know about. 

Regards

Frank

On Jan 30, 2017, at 3:51 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
<crispinpigott at outlook.com> wrote:

Dear Frank

How is this: ‎the anthropologist comes from the field and tells you that the
community will not spend time preparing fuel, and you can only plan on
burning stick fuel. 

There is no problem attempting to sell a stove that needs novel fuel, or a
processing method. But if you are told from the start not to bother, they
will refuse to use it, it has to be treated as valuable information. 

When an industrial designer assess what to create, the customer sets the
parameters. Apple famously held that people don't know what they want yet,
they have to be told. Well stovers, a lot of cooks know what they want and
what they don't.  

I think that's a good place to start. The designer can optimise the fuel
chopping and sizing all they want: the community will refuse it.  

We can't work in isolation from the market. That's the point. 

Regards 

Crispin 

Dear Crispin, 

I agree with the stove designer/selector criteria for guiding the process
making a stove. But before taking it into the field I suggest it be tested
using the biomass available and biomass optimized for that stove. That to be
included in the instructions. I realize people are going to use the stove as
they wish. But knowing how to prepare the fuel for optimum performance is a
start. 

Preparing the fuel for stoves takes time and energy and may seem silly and
likely not going to be done. BUT if the fuel is the variable that now needs
control we will never get cleaner stoves until this is done - no matter what
stove they use. I think a process that sizes and dries, splits, chips -
whatever the available fuel before use is the best next step to cleaner
stoves. 

Frank 

On Jan 29, 2017, at 2:41 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
<mailto:crispinpigott at outlook.com> crispinpigott at outlook.com> wrote:

Dear Frank

"If we don’t we are back to only the connected having the opportunity to
market their stoves and all other backyard tinsnips designs don’t have a
chance. Once that list is made you can add on all the additional
requirements you want. The stove passes or doesn’t make the second list."

I think we are cleverer than that. It is quite reasonable to set before a
stove designer/selector a set of 10 criteria of which half are hard science
numbers or ranges and the other half are soft science requirements. 

A good designer can then create or pick a few candidate‎ technologies for
verification and trials. 

The trials would be performed by experienced cooks and product reviewers
from the target community. Cecil wants it to go in stages of 'weeding' and
he wants it done before the technical evaluation. He often points out that
the most acceptable and widely adopted product may not be the ones with the
best technical specifications. 

That is why Toyota sells more cars than Lamborghini. 

Regards 

Crispin 

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Thanks

Frank

Frank Shields

Gabilan Laboratory

Keith Day Company, Inc.

1091 Madison Lane

Salinas, CA  93907

(831) 246-0417 cell

(831) 771-0126 office

 <mailto:fShields at keithdaycompany.com> fShields at keithdaycompany.com

 <mailto:franke at cruzio.com> franke at cruzio.com

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for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
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Thanks

Frank

Frank Shields

Gabilan Laboratory

Keith Day Company, Inc.

1091 Madison Lane

Salinas, CA  93907

(831) 246-0417 cell

(831) 771-0126 office

fShields at keithdaycompany.com

franke at cruzio.com

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