[Stoves] Fuel qualities as the limiting factor, and getting rid of WBT (Was: Frank on helium surrogate)

Tue Jan 31 10:59:21 CST 2017

List, cc Nikhil and Frank:

	1.  I agree with Frank on his point below:  Starting with the fuel and ending with a completed task is a MUST. 

	2.  Maybe Nikhil’s difficulties with this concept stem from his believing there is only a WBT procedure in the current ISO process.  There is another huge and much more difficult process to develop guidelines for field testing.  You hear ore about the WBT because it is further along in the ISO TG285  process.  More coming later on reports on Group 3 at the end of the ETHOS meeting.

	3.  Group 1 is an overall, and especially definition group.   Group 4 is the one with social science aspects.   Some do not have enough members, but group 2 (WBT orientation) has many dozens actively participating, mostly volunteers - putting in dozens and even hundreds of volunteer hours in some cases.  Final voting after multiple rounds of possible change opportunities, will be 1 vote per country.  Most voting (polling) so far is passing by votes like 30:1 (I am told by those involved).

	To repeat for emphasis, this process includes a lot more than the WBT.

Ron

> On Jan 27, 2017, at 10:33 PM, Traveller <miata98 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Frank:
> 
> Pray tell, why is that a critical feature - starting with the fuel and ending with a completed cooking task? 
> 
> I never saw mere heating water as a major "cooking task", nor the relevance of various measurements of combustion efficiency, heat transfer efficiency,control efficiency, all measured in reference to particular fuel and particular pot.  
> 
> This is a decades old obsession of bean-counters of thermodynamic efficiency, fuel consumption, trees saved, etc. that has a partial but not a controlling place in design of usable cookstoves for specific uses in specific contexts of cooking and markets for fuels. 
> 
> Now WBT is extended to CO and PM2.5 hourly emission rates, no matter that the rather baseless WHO IAQ Guideline is in terms of annual average exposure. 
> 
> I submit WBT has no valid purpose. I am not technically qualified to address whether any other test is any better, just that if performance metrics are not relevant to the cook, no matter of lab fanaticism will get the biomass stove movement anywhere. 
> 
> Time to question purported science. If it doesn't serve the needs, it is deficient. We didn't  use thermodynamicists alone to design furniture, did we? And furniture is a bigger business than biomass stoves. 
> 
> I go back to my very post back in June or July -- what is the service standard and what is the objective of standard setting? Nobody has yet dared to propose an answer. 
> 
> Nikhil
>  
> (India +91) 909 995 2080
>  
> 
> On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 11:33 PM, Frank Shields <franke at cruzio.com <mailto:franke at cruzio.com>> wrote:
> The water test must NOT ‘Go’. It is just a test procedure that needs modification FOR THE PURPOSE of what we want to interpret the results. It is the only test I have seen where we start with the FUEL and end with a completed COOKING TASK. Starting with the fuel and ending with a completed task is a MUST. 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Frank
> 
>> On Jan 27, 2017, at 9:33 AM, Traveller <miata98 at gmail.com <mailto:miata98 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Frank: 
>> 
>> Thank you. This comports well with my understanding of coal combustion in industrial/power generation use and also childhood experience with woody fuels and charcoal. 
>> 
>> Specifying lab tests with "oak", "spruce" etc. is intellectual imperialism. WBT must go from IWA. 
>> 
>> Nikhil
>> 
>> 
>> --------- 
>> (India +91) 909 995 2080
>>  
>> 
>> On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Frank Shields <franke at cruzio.com <mailto:franke at cruzio.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> You ask:
>> 
>>> I have two reasons to ask: 
>>> 
>>> a) the importance of fuel chemistry (instead of some pre-specified wood, having a range of locally used biomass or new processed biomass) at various stages of combustion; and, On Jan 27, 2017, at 1:21 AM, Traveller <miata98 at gmail.com <mailto:miata98 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Others will know more; but the chemistry of the biomass (carbon particle density, packing carbon density, void space, fixed and volatile fractions, moisture, ash  etc.) is much more important to know than ‘oak’ or ‘spruce’. I believe its the preparation of the gases before entering the secondary thats most important and thinking we might be able to make adjustments if we can learn the mix that burned hot and clean. I’m thinking the helium surrogate thats bled in with the primary air at a very controlled and constant rate will be very useful when monitoring the gases entering the secondary. I’m sure someone must have tried this. Perhaps Tom Reed or Jim Jetter?
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>> Frank    
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>> Frank
>> Frank Shields
>> Gabilan Laboratory
>> Keith Day Company, Inc.
>> 1091 Madison Lane
>> Salinas, CA  93907
>> (831) 246-0417 <tel:(831)%20246-0417> cell
>> (831) 771-0126 <tel:(831)%20771-0126> office
>> fShields at keithdaycompany.com <mailto:fShields at keithdaycompany.com>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> franke at cruzio.com <mailto:franke at cruzio.com>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Frank
> Frank Shields
> Gabilan Laboratory
> Keith Day Company, Inc.
> 1091 Madison Lane
> Salinas, CA  93907
> (831) 246-0417 <tel:(831)%20246-0417> cell
> (831) 771-0126 <tel:(831)%20771-0126> office
> fShields at keithdaycompany.com <mailto:fShields at keithdaycompany.com>
> 
> 
> 
> franke at cruzio.com <mailto:franke at cruzio.com>
> 
> 
> 
> 
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