[Stoves] solar cooker response (changing thread name)

[Nikhil Desai]

I take Ron's side in this discussion between him and Philip.

The fundamental error is to assume that only an "integrated" solution is
acceptable to a user. An additional error is in assuming that the market
for new stove innovations is poor households -- which is a double whammy,
since it rules out commercial customers as well as upper-income households,
both of whom are frequently able and willing to "dis-integrate" the cooking
into separate tasks and products.

And yes, monkeys and thieves are also fond of stealing solar PV panels.
There were some statistics on such about 15 years ago, when many zealots
for "solar home systems" (SHS) were interested in such statistics. (The
largely sorry experience of SHS - maybe 5% of the lighting and tv market
for households not connected to the grid or not having reliable supplies,
after ~20 years of song and dance. Including by yours truly.)

I haven't looked lately but back 10+ years ago, I found that solar
pre-cooking had been popularized in Indian temples and schools, and for
some special cooking events (weddings and such).

Below some comments also to Roger. And I have commented on "induction"
separately, whether by common grid electricity (no matter what the fuel
mix) or by dedicated PV-battery systems.

Nikhil

------------------------------------------------------------------------


On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 10:26 PM, Ronal W. Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
wrote:

> Philip:  adding the list, which I assume Philip intended.
>
> On Jun 7, 2017, at 4:03 PM, Philip Lloyd <plloyd at mweb.co.za> wrote:
>
> Dear Ron,
> It sure would help if you could address the questions I raised, instead of
> referring to some wiki web in support of your position
>
>
> *RWL:   Not “some wiki web”.   This is a long standing NGO site, designed
> to educate about solar cooking.  It contains high quality material on all
> of Philip’s comments.*
>
> Philip
>
>
> *RWL:  Here I repeat in italics the entire set of comments (NO “questions)
> from Philip’s message on the 6th, with my new inserted replies in bold.  In
> summary,  I think Philip has an inappropriate view of solar cookers - which
> of course MUST have backup - preferably from char-making stoves.  See the
> full exchange further down.  I cited the SCI wiki material because it fully
> covered all the responses I next make (and still think are not needed).*
>
> *1.         Cooking is a personal thing.  Cooks like to be involved, to
> stir, to taste, to season, to improve. Just sitting and waiting is ‘wrong'*
>
> *RWL1:   I like the first part.  I disagree that the average cook feels
> it “wrong” to “sit and wait”.  It is in no way difficult to “stir, taste,
> and season” while solar cooking takes place.*
>
>
> *2.         One cloudy day, one family of unfed children, one less solar
> cooker*
>
> *[RWL2:   I conclude that Philip has done little solar cooking.  I have
> never heard of any solar cook anywhere who ONLY used a solar cooker.*
>
> *3.         Nature abhors a vacuum - monkeys, warthogs, porcupines, even
> passers-by, found the food too attractive to leave in the sun. *
>
> *[RWL3:   Anyone have any statistics on this “vacuum” problem?  It seems a
> stretch to say this is a problem only for solar cooking.*
>
> *There may be **pla**ces in the world where none of this applies, or
> where people have learned to use the cookers when the sun shines, but it is
> not a general solution to the cooking problem.  *
>
> *[RWL4: I have been going to solar cooking conferences for 40 years - and
> never recall anyone saying that solar cooking is a “general solution”.*
>
> * Since Philip wants more of my personal views, let me add to my
> concluding sentence “  **There are plenty of reasons for this list to be
> supportive of more solar cooking.    **by noting:*
>
> * Solar cookers are by far the most healthy type of stove.  *
> * By far the best from a forest preservation perspective.  *
> * By far the lowest in an atmospheric carbon addition sense.  *
>
> * I am not working as much on solar cookers now as in the past - because
> they can’t  remove atmospheric carbon,  as can char-making stoves.  ** (I
> keep looking for combined solar - char-making systems.)*
>
> *Ron*
>
>
> *From:* Ronal W. Larson [mailto:rongretlarson at comcast.net
> <rongretlarson at comcast.net>]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 7, 2017 5:08 PM
> *To:* Discussion of biomass; Philip Lloyd
> *Cc:* Roger Samson
> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Fine Particulates from a Selection of Cookstoves
>
>
> Philip, list, Roger:
>
>             This “Integrated” site is from 2005 or we would see TLUDs
> mentioned I believe:  http://solarcooking.wikia.
> com/wiki/Integrated_Cooking_Method .
>
>             There are plenty of reasons for this list to be supportive of
> more solar cooking.
>
> Ron
>
>
> On Jun 6, 2017, at 1:19 AM, Philip Lloyd <plloyd at mweb.co.za> wrote:
>
>
> I recall a message 30 years ago "The future for much of the world for
> clean cooking will be with cheap renewable solar power." A few years
> passed, and I wrote "The road to the North is littered with abandoned solar
> cookers." We found:
> 1.         Cooking is a personal thing.  Cooks like to be involved, to
> stir, to taste, to season, to improve. Just sitting and waiting is 'wrong'.
>
> *** Some pre-cooking can be done while taking kids to school or bringing
them back. The first time I heard any housewife cooking with a solar cooker
was in 2001, a few upper middle-class highly educated women working for a
friend's environmentalist organization. They cooked beans and rice on
solar, then went home to spice up the beans and make fresh breads on gas.
***

> 2.         One cloudy day, one family of unfed children, one less solar
> cooker
>
> 3.         Nature abhors a vacuum - monkeys, warthogs, porcupines, even
> passers-by, found the food too attractive to leave in the sun.
> There may be places in the world where none of this applies, or where
> people have learned to use the cookers when the sun shines, but it is not a
> general solution to the cooking problem.
> Philip Lloyd
>
>
> Behalf Of Roger Samson
> Sent: Monday, June 5, 2017 11:40 PM
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; ndesai at alum.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Fine Particulates from a Selection of Cookstoves
>
> I just wish GACC would drop its obsession to push clean cooking with
> fossil fuels as its lead strategy. It's a low sustainability agenda
> subsiding fossil fuels and money intensive. It's no better than a win-lose.
>
>
> The future for much of the world for clean cooking will be with cheap
> renewable solar power. It is dropping in price at 20%/year. Check out this
> video how it will be a disruptive technology for the entire energy sector.
> Clean Disruption - Why Conventional Energy & Transportation will be
> Obsolete by 2030 - Oslo, March 2016 https://www.youtube.com/
> watch?v=Kxryv2XrnqM&feature=youtu.be
>
> *** I am skeptical. There is recently a lot of hype about India ditching
coal and embracing renewables. Not worth more than a slight nod of head.
***

> The nice thing about solar powered cooking with electricity is that in
> much of the developing world, lunch is a big part of the thermal energy
> demand for cooking. Many overburdened women simply re-heat food for dinner
> to save labour and fuel.
>
>  **** I don't believe so. This is more the case with urban middle-class in
increasing numbers, but from what I have seen in much of India and Africa,
2-3 meals a day are cooked daily. Depends on size/composition of the
"eating audience" - family in a loose sense. Anil Rajvanshi rightly says
the working poor cannot afford the luxury of cooking three fresh meals a
day; they just don't have the time. But this means a curtailment in meals
cooked, not re-heating. In hot environments, food is not kept from morning
till evening. ***

> Renewable power from solar energy is a great fit. You can do most of your
> cooking when power is cheapest and most reliable.
>
> *** Not necessarily the case, especially for the working poor. Both men
and women work, and with smaller and independent ("nuclear") families,
breaking up due to migration of the male workers to cities and towns, the
routine of "cooking" has changed. Many geographic, seasonal variations.
(Some menfolk return to villages during planting and harvesting seasons.)
***

> We need to see more cookstove innovations around renewable solar including
> integrating solar thermal and electric cooking and heat retaining devices.
>
> *** "Integrating" is a choice best left to users, not stove designers. ***


>
> regards
>
> Roger
>
>
>
>
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