[Stoves] solar cooker response (changing thread name)

Nikhil Desai pienergy2008 at gmail.com
Wed Jun 14 16:15:27 CDT 2017


Crispin:

I shouldn't have to add your name to the list of people who don't read what
I write.

You accuse me of "Still too many assumptions."

I did not assume - perhaps should have -- that you are dead set against
solar cooking on principle (which I cannot fathom, so I will not assume).

Since you have forced me to quote myself -- not that I mind! -  please tell
me what assumptions do you find in the following:

In other words, technical standards or lack thereof probably had the least
to do with failure. Because solar cookers have a high capital cost,
utilization rates play a more significant role.

Another consideration is the institutional base for marketing and
after-sales service. With the kind of locale GIZ experts picked - rural
northwest in South Africa - I wonder just who was locally available to
source, store solar cookers for display and to serve as a selling and
guarantee agent.

No matter what technical standards you labor on, it's the institutional
capacity that is the Achilles' heel. Sitting in Europe and selling in South
Africa worked with kerosene lamps a hundred years ago because the fuel was
available locally. Selling solar cookers that way required a sanity check.

To all the "complaints" you recite, however, I see one underlying
assumption -- that solar cooking is for rural poor households' exclusive
and permanent transition away from wood.

Just what was the problem that was sought to be solved? I cannot fault
project designers for mimicking exactly the rationales I have seen for
improved biomass stoves -- solar is renewable, solar is clean, solar is
free, solar will save trees, lives, climate, women's chastity.

If you want to challenge too many assumptions, you are looking in the wrong
corner.

Nikhil

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nikhil Desai
(US +1) 202 568 5831
*Skype: nikhildesai888*


On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 4:59 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
crispinpigott at outlook.com> wrote:

> Still too many assumptions on your part.
>
>
>
> GTZ/GIZ was always under pressure from solar cooking enthusiasts to
> promote their wares. Everywhere the result was the same – rejection.
>
>
>
> Complaints in response were:
>
> You didn’t try long enough
>
> You chose a place with too much free wood available, it has to have fuel
> stress.
>
> You didn’t push hard enough
>
> You didn’t make them available cheap enough
>
> You didn’t give them good enough products (referring to cooking power)
>
> You chose an area without enough space to use them
>
> You chose an area with too little solar resources
>
> You chose an area without an income level high enough to afford them
>
>
>
> And so on, till the cows came home. The fanatics remains fanatical and the
> cooks remained adamant.
>
>
>
> So…they chose a place that was as ‘ideal’ as possible. If would work
> anywhere on earth, it would work in North-West province straight west of
> Pretoria. In the end, the result was people cooked an average of two meals
> a week on it. I think that’s correct.
>
>
>
> Conclusions?
>
> They can cook
>
> People can afford them
>
> The usage rate does not justify the expense
>
> We are not going to promote them anymore.
>
>
>
> I think that’s how it went. Whenever anyone pops in to ask why they don’t
> push solar cookers, they are handed a copy of that report. If someone comes
> up with proof they can work at scale, I am sure they will listen.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Crispin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It is not necessary that a solar cooker have a backup.
>
>
>
> Please stop thinking of the cooking market in terms of vague "integrated
> cooking solution." Solar cookers can do daytime large-scale tasks.
>
>
>
> Besides, a three-stone wood fire is always a reliable backup. Cutting its
> use may not satisfy Kirk Smith as "truly health protective", but that makes
> no difference.
>
>
>
> About the time as I looked into Gelfuel in Malawi, I also talked to some
> people about solar cookers. My tentative view then (~15 years ago) was that
> while Gelfuel could be a convenient small-scale backup, solar cooker just
> did not appeal to cooks.
>
>
>
> Possibly another instance of Boy Scout thermodynamicists who didn't find a
> good market definition and an industrial product designer.
>
> In other words, technical standards or lack thereof probably had the least
> to do with failure. Because solar cookers have a high capital cost,
> utilization rates play a more significant role.
>
> Another consideration is the institutional base for marketing and
> after-sales service. With the kind of locale GIZ experts picked - rural
> northwest in South Africa - I wonder just who was locally available to
> source, store solar cookers for display and to serve as a selling and
> guarantee agent.
>
> No matter what technical standards you labor on, it's the institutional
> capacity that is the Achilles' heel. Sitting in Europe and selling in South
> Africa worked with kerosene lamps a hundred years ago because the fuel was
> available locally. Selling solar cookers that way required a sanity check.
>
>
> Nikhil
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Nikhil Desai
>
> +91 909 995 2080 <+91%2090999%2052080>
>
> Skype: nikhildesai888
>
>
> On Jun 14, 2017, at 8:09 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
> crispinpigott at outlook.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Dieter
>
>
>
> Do you know the name(s) of the test methods used during that comparison,
> and did any of them make it to being accepted as an international solar
> cooker standard?
>
>
>
> Also, thank you for your clarifications and request that we consider the
> whole solar sector is not a single 'thing'. Because solar cookers require a
> backup device, often a biomass stove, we should pay attention on this
> channel.
>
>
>
> Arising out of the Sout‎h African GTZ (at the time) project is the
> realisation that the biomass stove has to be rapid lighting. By the time
> the cook gives up on the solar cooked meal, the need for immediate heat is
> obvious. The report on the project should be available on line. To be
> practical, the biomass and solar stoves should be marketed as a pair. We
> toyed with the idea at the time that the biomass stove could be built into
> the solar cooker.
>
>
>
> Generally speaking the solar cooker cost a lot more than a back up stove.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Crispin
>
>>
> Dear Stovers,
>
> A source of confusion concerning solar cookers is the large variety of
> devices, all of them called "solar cookers". At the Plataforma
> Solar/Almeria/Spain there was an International Solar Cooker Test by
> Eurpoean Committee for Solar Cooking Research in 1994 with 25 participating
> devices. One of them did not cook at all; the SK parabolic cooker (1.4 m
> reflector diameter) brougt 48 liters of water to the boil per day. Some
> cookers had direct access to the pot, others not. Some were only applicable
> for special tasks, etc.
>
>
>
> Thus, general judgments are problematic. Solar cooking is a great
> opportunity with a high variety of applications. Problems can be overcome,
> but persistence is necessary, similar e.g. to the development of bicycles.
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
> Dieter
>
>
>
> Am 14.06.2017 um 03:46 schrieb Michael N Trevor:
>
> Here in the Marshall Islands, the another science teacher wanted them
> thrown away because they were bulky and had no value in classes centered on
> environmental science and climate change. Of course we are only about 2/3
> meters above sea level
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 1:01 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
> crispinpigott at outlook.com> wrote:
>
> Nikhil
>
>
>
> Let's not assume anything.‎ These were the findings of the study which was
> a multi-year attempt to find out if there was any long term reason to get
> involved in the promotion of solar cookers.
>
>
>
> The conclusion was, no. ‎And they swore them off. For them, if they had a
> chance anywhere that was the ideal place, and it was not viable.
>
>
>
> Very sane.
>
> Crispin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Crispin;
>
>
>
> You have listed enough reasons to dispute the sanity of GIZ experts.
>
>
>
> Nikhil
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 13, 2017, at 11:35 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
> crispinpigott at outlook.com> wrote:
>
> Solar concentrating cooker:
>
>
>
> One of the main problems encountered with solar cookers (K14, K16 and so
> on) in the last big GIZ effort in North-West Province of South Africa was,
> in spite of the rural location, theft of the stoves for sale to scrap
> merchants. Aluminum is valuable.
>
>
>
> Another common problem is wind tipping them over.
>
> A third is wind-blown dust getting into the food.
>
> A fourth is theft of the food.
>
> A fifth is storage of the unit.
>
>
>
> People have little space in their homes and storage of a valuable cooker
> outdoors is not practical.
>
>
>
> GIZ spent about 7m Euros on that project and declared no further interest
> in solar cookers.
>
>
>
> Crispin
>
>
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