[Stoves] "Young-adult" TLUD research Re: List of woods for TLUDs?
Todd Albi
todd.r.albi at gmail.com
Mon May 1 10:57:05 CDT 2017
Paul:
Correct, orifice size dictates PA & SA ratios directed to top or bottom of
TLUD stove.
Regards,
Todd Albi, SilverFire
On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 8:49 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
> Todd,
>
> I remember studying the rotating plate with the differnct sizes of holes.
>
> How does the different size of hole send more air to SA or less to PA?
> What splits the air flows? Or is a smaller hole just letting less air
> enter?
>
> Paul
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072 <(309)%20452-7072>
> Website: www.drtlud.com
>
> On 5/1/2017 10:33 AM, Todd Albi wrote:
>
> Paul:
>
> There are 2 screws that hold the fan assembly control box to front of
> stove. The air control is all mechanical, except for the actual fan. You
> can remove the stove assembly box and inspect the rear air couplers that
> insert into stove body. The knob on the fan assembly rotates a metal plate
> with different size orifices that adjusts SA &PA mixing. It has no impact
> on the fan speed control, just ventilation ratios. The fan speed control
> is adjusted with the optional PWM that plugs inline between 12 volt DC cord
> and the box. The PWM is interrupting the electrical signal and adjusts the
> fan speed.
>
> We have a local city mechanic who pulls their bucket truck and forklift
> bearings with this stove. We restores antique British bikes on weekends.
> He throws a metal plate on top of the stove and sets bearings on top to
> heat and release. Recently he showed me a photo of an old Triumph head on
> the heated plate, where in the photo the outer fins of the motor cycle were
> gray and the two cylinders closest to the flame were cherry red at exactly
> at 500 degrees Fahrenheit for extraction. He loves the PWM for fine tune
> control. He also uses the stove to melt lead for shooting.
>
> This is our favorite large party wok stove, due to its tremendous fire
> power in a small portable forced air stove design. It is capable of stir
> frying meat or vegetables for large groups very quickly, or reduced to low
> fire power cooking with the PWM option.
>
> http://www.silverfire.us/super-dragon-fan-stove
>
> Regards,
>
> Todd Albi, SilverFire
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 8:00 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
>
>> Todd,
>>
>> For those who are not familiar with the mentioned Super Dragon TLUD
>> stove, it can be seen at
>> http://www.silverfire.us/super-dragon-fan-stove
>>
>> There is a single knob. How does that knob change the RATIO between the
>> primary air and secondary air (PA and SA)? It is for speed control. And
>> the PWM is also for speed control.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
>> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072 <%28309%29%20452-7072>
>> Website: www.drtlud.com
>>
>> On 5/1/2017 12:48 AM, Todd Albi wrote:
>>
>> Ron & Paul:
>>
>> What exactly point are you making? We have a single ventilation knob
>> control on our Super Dragon TLUD fan stove we have been selling since
>> 2012. It has a single knob that adjusts both primary and secondary air,
>> and is available with an optional pulse width modulator (fan speed
>> control). Paul has one of these fan stove units, *minus the important
>> fan speed control.* He never purchased the inline fan speed control
>> (option) for the stove (only the stove) and he only can control primary &
>> secondary mixing. That means he cannot maximize low and high fire power
>> cooking control. The capacity to adjust primary and secondary air and fan
>> speed both are very important.
>>
>> The high fire power with out the PWM allows for intense wok cooking, and
>> by reducing the electronic signal with the optional PWM, means canning,
>> waffle making or gourmet salt block grilling are possible. The fan speed
>> control (allows high & low fire power cooking). Density of fuel is going
>> to result is longer duration of burns in any type of stove (natural draft,
>> fan, rocket or TLUD). We find that a force fan stove is going to override
>> ventilation inside the combustion chamber to some degree, since air mixing
>> is obviously increased. This is despite how combustion chamber was packed,
>> since combustion is accelerated with a force air fan. Density of fuel is
>> going to impact combustion.
>>
>> We also offer a TLUD forced fan grill that has 5 fan settings (speeds),
>> but no has air mixing control. The point of the unit is to maximize high
>> temperature searing, due to high cooking temperatures involved, not
>> achievable with standard BBQ grill, that typically only reach 1/2 the
>> grilling temperatures the forced fan grill reaches. The point is that
>> different stove designs impact the cuisine and type of specific cooking you
>> desire. Biomass stove designs vary significantly and have multiple pros
>> and cons, depending on the outcome you are trying to achieve (cuisine, fuel
>> use, etc...). Stove design choice is most important, not hanging your hat
>> on a specific stove design (rocket stove, TLUD, Force Fan stove, or any
>> other design). Different types of stove designs when used together, can
>> also complement each other.
>>
>> For example a natural draft rocket stove used in unison with a natural
>> draft TLUD may be ideal, with the former used to cook your breakfast
>> quickly, while a large a large water bath used for sanitizing drinking
>> water or cookware can sit unattended on the TLUD for long durations, may be
>> ideal in an outdoor kitchen application, using natural draft stoves. Fan
>> stoves are going to accommodate larger groups of folks, or increase speed
>> of food preparation, if desired. Each stove design has practical
>> application and merits for the outcome desired.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Todd Albi, SilverFire
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 9:14 PM, Ronal W. Larson <
>> rongretlarson at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Paul and ccs:
>>>
>>> I guess I don’t understand “*that task that I suggested needs to be
>>> researched.” *
>>>
>>> I contend that changing fuel density should not be an influential
>>> property.
>>>
>>> I am not suggesting that you wouldn’t need to change the SA/PA ratio a
>>> tad for different fuels.
>>>
>>> Thanks for reminding that the Mini Moto designers seem to be in
>>> agreement with me.
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 30, 2017, at 9:46 PM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Ron,
>>>
>>> A single controller (that does not allow for changing the ratio and
>>> amount of air to PA and SA) is, by definition, unable to do that task that
>>> I suggested needs to be researched.
>>>
>>> And there certainly are SINGLE controls since the Woodgas campstove had
>>> 2 settings, and now Mimi-Moto has a dial with about 5 settings, but no
>>> change of ratio.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
>>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
>>> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072 <%28309%29%20452-7072>
>>> Website: www.drtlud.com
>>>
>>> On 4/30/2017 5:13 PM, Ronal W. Larson wrote:
>>>
>>> Paul, List and ccs:
>>>
>>> Well I haven’t heard a reason why my yesterday statement on only needing
>>> a single controller (limiting fuels to the non-oily variety) was incorrect.
>>>
>>>
>>> This is to hope we can have more discussion on this quite important
>>> point.
>>>
>>> I am quite sure I saw a TLUD design a few years ago that used a single
>>> air control. Anyone able to help?
>>>
>>> I don’t know anything about Nathan Puffer’s work.
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 29, 2017, at 9:33 PM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Ron,
>>>
>>> I disagree. You wrote:
>>>
>>> preferring to use one controller for both is that the ratio of primary
>>> to secondary should always be the same
>>>
>>> The point is that the ratio is NOT to always be the same. Even the
>>> different packing of the fuel in to the TLUD can make primary air (PA) flow
>>> more easily, creating more gases and needing a change in secondary air (SA)
>>> to get optimal performance.
>>>
>>> Automobiles have sensors for all kinds of issues, with automated
>>> adjustments. Just not practical yet for cookstoves that need to be
>>> inexpensive. Bu who knows, someday solid biomass as initial fuel could be
>>> pyrolyzed and have the gases combusted in very controlled ways that would
>>> seem like Science Fiction if said today. I believe that it will be
>>> justified for the woodgas/TLUD stoves, but not for the old-hat ICS stoves,
>>> including rockets.
>>>
>>> Nathan Puffer''s work was not quantitatively evaluated. It was a
>>> demonstration that made its point but was not in a way that could be into
>>> large numbers of stoves at that time and still today.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
>>> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072 <%28309%29%20452-7072>
>>> Website: www.drtlud.com
>>>
>>> On 4/29/2017 9:46 PM, Ronal W. Larson wrote:
>>>
>>> Paul, cc Nathan and list
>>>
>>> Thanks for bringing up the two subjects of a) separately controlling
>>> secondary air, and b) oily (mostly seed?) fuels.
>>>
>>> I agree that we should be controlling secondary air, but I am pretty
>>> sure that we should and can do this with the same controller as for the
>>> primary air. Most TLUDs already can and should control primary air, but
>>> make no effort to control the secondary air. My reason for preferring to
>>> use one controller for both is that the ratio of primary to secondary
>>> should always be the same if we want (or can live with) a fixed ratio for
>>> excess air. One controller is cheaper and is easier for the cook.
>>> Anyone disagree?
>>>
>>> On the subject of using Jaropha seeds, I am pretty sure that we would
>>> need a larger amount of “secondary” air than for non-oily fuels, but that
>>> there still could be a single air controller (just with a larger SA/PA
>>> ratio [ maybe goes from about 6:1 up to 7:1 ??]. Note that these oils
>>> cannot combust as they pass through the hot charcoal above the downward
>>> moving pyrolysis front (no oxygen in that stream). But I presume the
>>> temperature is enough for them to arrive above the char as quite a
>>> different set of gases. So, I’d like to hear more about what Nathan
>>> found. Any cite we can look up?
>>>
>>> I agree with the rest of Paul’s comments. TLUDs are not yet a mature
>>> technology - but it is growing up; it is not standing still.
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 29, 2017, at 8:14 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> To all, 29 April 2017 [This note contains some new
>>> content and explanations for the advancement of TLUD stoves.]
>>>
>>> 1. Ron: I and probably some others have successfully used dung as
>>> the input fuel into TLUDs. I am not recommending dung, but if it is
>>> being burned, then a TLUD is preferred for cleaner burning.
>>>
>>> 2. AD: I agree with Ron that the TLUD stoves are better with both
>>> light and hard (heavy) wood than direct burning of them in any
>>> direct-burning (ICS) stove.
>>>
>>> 3. Main point, to Neil and all: TLUDs are not burning wood
>>> directly. TLUDs turn wood into gases. THEN the gases are burned. So
>>> poplar, maple, maize cobs, dung, etc. are ALL becoming gases first. THEN
>>> the burning of those gases might be somewhat different (but not as much as
>>> the direct burning of those diverse fuels).
>>>
>>> TLUD stoves are just arriving into their "young-adult stage." In
>>> contrast: not infancy, not childhood, maybe still "youth", but certainly
>>> not full maturity, and a long way from the "old age" of the ICS "Inproved
>>> or Inadequate" direct-burning cookstoves. This is because we are still
>>> learning about better and better ways of mixing the combustible gases with
>>> the incoming secondary air (SA) (This is where the BURNING takes place to
>>> make the heat that goes to the pot. TLUDs are DIRECTLY burning GASES, not
>>> solid fuels. ) (Please see my "Classification of Stove Technology and
>>> Fuels" documents (1-page and 4-page versions) at
>>> http://www.drtlud.com/2017/04/11/classification-stove-techno
>>> logies-fuels/ )
>>>
>>> The *solid *wood and dung etc are an intermediate stage of the fuel.
>>> Sort of a "storage" stage. Then pyrolysis "transforms solids into gases
>>> plus charcoal". The created gases are then burned SEPARATELY (by
>>> centimeters and seconds, but certainly separately) from where the gases
>>> were created. We do not have clear terminology for this, in layman's
>>> terms. The closest might be "gas burning stoves that make their own
>>> gases."
>>>
>>> So, what development is happening in the early "young-adult" stage?
>>> Control of primary air, learning about solid "intermediate" fuels, and
>>> improving combustion of the gases, as well as "new clothes" with sizes and
>>> mateials.
>>>
>>> Consider this: We have known of FA (forced air or fan assisted) TLUD
>>> stoves from the 1990s. And there has been much progress. But NO TLUD on
>>> the market has SEPARATE controls for "variable flows" of primary air (PA)
>>> and secondary air (SA). THAT control is what will make the difference
>>> regarding Neil's initial question that pointed to differences in the
>>> initial fuels (and therefore differences in the resultant gases and
>>> quantities of gases that are being burned.)
>>>
>>> Note that TLUDs can be made with different flows of PA ans SA by
>>> changing the sizes and number of holes. That is a form of "tuning" the
>>> TLUD for a specific fuel. This works great for one initial fuel, but only
>>> good but acceptable with other fringe fuels. I am NOT referring to that
>>> work as being "variable flows". I am referring to when the user can
>>> change the flows, even during one batch of fuel.
>>>
>>> There has been some researach (mostly unreported and set aside) on
>>> variable control of primary and secondary air, using fans. I have
>>> experimented several times. The "million-dollar-grants" have had
>>> laboratory equipment with controlled and measured separate air flows.
>>> Nathan Puffer did it when we were looking at Jatropha SEEDS as a fuel.
>>> Seeds give off additional gases from the vaporization (not pyrolysis) of
>>> combustible vegetable oils (carbohydrates), which are much more plentiful
>>> in seeds than in stems and branches and leaves, thereby overwhelming the
>>> insufficient supply of SA in a "regular" TLUD-FA.
>>>
>>> There is a good reason to not have separate control of PA and SA. That
>>> reason is the user, the cook. To need to "dial-in" the right flow of SA
>>> (assuming PA flow stays the same) is, for the most part and for most
>>> non-scientist cooks, an extra task that could easily be done incorrectly.
>>> And there are the financial reasons of increased cost and maintenance.
>>>
>>> But with "separate air-flow control" (not an established term and NOT
>>> justifying an acronym like SAC, as in TLUD-SAC), Neil or anyone could put
>>> many very different initial fuels into a TLUD and have greater control of
>>> the burning of the gases.
>>>
>>> More work is needed before TLUD stoves can reach their full potential,
>>> while growing in "young-adulthood". Today (2017), maybe 40% of what can be
>>> known about TLUD stoves is now known (but not necessarily put into practice
>>> by stove manufacturers).
>>>
>>> (This note is being placed at the EPosts section of my website
>>> www.drtlud.com so that it can be accessed continually instead of
>>> only one time on the Stove Listserv.)
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
>>> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072 <%28309%29%20452-7072>
>>> Website: www.drtlud.com
>>>
>>>
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