[Stoves] "Young-adult" TLUD research Re: List of woods for TLUDs?
Paul Anderson
psanders at ilstu.edu
Mon May 1 10:49:17 CDT 2017
Todd,
I remember studying the rotating plate with the differnct sizes of holes.
How does the different size of hole send more air to SA or less to PA?
What splits the air flows? Or is a smaller hole just letting less air
enter?
Paul
Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: www.drtlud.com
On 5/1/2017 10:33 AM, Todd Albi wrote:
> Paul:
>
> There are 2 screws that hold the fan assembly control box to front of
> stove. The air control is all mechanical, except for the actual fan.
> You can remove the stove assembly box and inspect the rear air
> couplers that insert into stove body. The knob on the fan assembly
> rotates a metal plate with different size orifices that adjusts SA &PA
> mixing. It has no impact on the fan speed control, just ventilation
> ratios. The fan speed control is adjusted with the optional PWM that
> plugs inline between 12 volt DC cord and the box. The PWM is
> interrupting the electrical signal and adjusts the fan speed.
>
> We have a local city mechanic who pulls their bucket truck and
> forklift bearings with this stove. We restores antique British bikes
> on weekends. He throws a metal plate on top of the stove and sets
> bearings on top to heat and release. Recently he showed me a photo of
> an old Triumph head on the heated plate, where in the photo the outer
> fins of the motor cycle were gray and the two cylinders closest to the
> flame were cherry red at exactly at 500 degrees Fahrenheit for
> extraction. He loves the PWM for fine tune control. He also uses the
> stove to melt lead for shooting.
>
> This is our favorite large party wok stove, due to its tremendous fire
> power in a small portable forced air stove design. It is capable of
> stir frying meat or vegetables for large groups very quickly, or
> reduced to low fire power cooking with the PWM option.
>
> http://www.silverfire.us/super-dragon-fan-stove
>
> Regards,
>
> Todd Albi, SilverFire
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 8:00 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu
> <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>> wrote:
>
> Todd,
>
> For those who are not familiar with the mentioned Super Dragon
> TLUD stove, it can be seen at
> http://www.silverfire.us/super-dragon-fan-stove
> <http://www.silverfire.us/super-dragon-fan-stove>
>
> There is a single knob. How does that knob change the RATIO
> between the primary air and secondary air (PA and SA)? It is for
> speed control. And the PWM is also for speed control.
>
> Paul
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> Email:psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>
> Skype: paultlud Phone:+1-309-452-7072 <tel:%28309%29%20452-7072>
> Website:www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com>
>
> On 5/1/2017 12:48 AM, Todd Albi wrote:
>> Ron & Paul:
>>
>> What exactly point are you making? We have a single ventilation
>> knob control on our Super Dragon TLUD fan stove we have been
>> selling since 2012. It has a single knob that adjusts both
>> primary and secondary air, and is available with an optional
>> pulse width modulator (fan speed control). Paul has one of these
>> fan stove units, /minus the important fan speed control./ He
>> never purchased the inline fan speed control (option) for the
>> stove (only the stove) and he only can control primary &
>> secondary mixing. That means he cannot maximize low and high
>> fire power cooking control. The capacity to adjust primary and
>> secondary air and fan speed both are very important.
>>
>> The high fire power with out the PWM allows for intense wok
>> cooking, and by reducing the electronic signal with the optional
>> PWM, means canning, waffle making or gourmet salt block grilling
>> are possible. The fan speed control (allows high & low fire power
>> cooking). Density of fuel is going to result is longer duration
>> of burns in any type of stove (natural draft, fan, rocket or
>> TLUD). We find that a force fan stove is going to override
>> ventilation inside the combustion chamber to some degree, since
>> air mixing is obviously increased. This is despite how
>> combustion chamber was packed, since combustion is accelerated
>> with a force air fan. Density of fuel is going to impact combustion.
>>
>> We also offer a TLUD forced fan grill that has 5 fan settings
>> (speeds), but no has air mixing control. The point of the unit
>> is to maximize high temperature searing, due to high cooking
>> temperatures involved, not achievable with standard BBQ grill,
>> that typically only reach 1/2 the grilling temperatures the
>> forced fan grill reaches. The point is that different stove
>> designs impact the cuisine and type of specific cooking you
>> desire. Biomass stove designs vary significantly and have
>> multiple pros and cons, depending on the outcome you are trying
>> to achieve (cuisine, fuel use, etc...). Stove design choice is
>> most important, not hanging your hat on a specific stove design
>> (rocket stove, TLUD, Force Fan stove, or any other design).
>> Different types of stove designs when used together, can also
>> complement each other.
>>
>> For example a natural draft rocket stove used in unison with a
>> natural draft TLUD may be ideal, with the former used to cook
>> your breakfast quickly, while a large a large water bath used for
>> sanitizing drinking water or cookware can sit unattended on the
>> TLUD for long durations, may be ideal in an outdoor kitchen
>> application, using natural draft stoves. Fan stoves are going to
>> accommodate larger groups of folks, or increase speed of food
>> preparation, if desired. Each stove design has practical
>> application and merits for the outcome desired.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Todd Albi, SilverFire
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 9:14 PM, Ronal W. Larson
>> <rongretlarson at comcast.net <mailto:rongretlarson at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Paul and ccs:
>>
>> I guess I don’t understand “/that task that I suggested needs
>> to be researched.” /
>> /
>> /
>> //I contend that changing fuel density should not be an
>> influential property.
>>
>> I am not suggesting that you wouldn’t need to change the
>> SA/PA ratio a tad for different fuels.
>>
>> Thanks for reminding that the Mini Moto designers seem to be
>> in agreement with me.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 30, 2017, at 9:46 PM, Paul Anderson
>>> <psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Ron,
>>>
>>> A single controller (that does not allow for changing the
>>> ratio and amount of air to PA and SA) is, by definition,
>>> unable to do that task that I suggested needs to be researched.
>>>
>>> And there certainly are SINGLE controls since the Woodgas
>>> campstove had 2 settings, and now Mimi-Moto has a dial with
>>> about 5 settings, but no change of ratio.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>> Email:psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>
>>> Skype: paultlud Phone:+1-309-452-7072 <tel:%28309%29%20452-7072>
>>> Website:www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com/>
>>> On 4/30/2017 5:13 PM, Ronal W. Larson wrote:
>>>> Paul, List and ccs:
>>>>
>>>> Well I haven’t heard a reason why my yesterday statement on
>>>> only needing a single controller (limiting fuels to the
>>>> non-oily variety) was incorrect.
>>>>
>>>> This is to hope we can have more discussion on this quite
>>>> important point.
>>>>
>>>> I am quite sure I saw a TLUD design a few years ago that
>>>> used a single air control. Anyone able to help?
>>>>
>>>> I don’t know anything about Nathan Puffer’s work.
>>>>
>>>> Ron
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 29, 2017, at 9:33 PM, Paul Anderson
>>>>> <psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Ron,
>>>>>
>>>>> I disagree. You wrote:
>>>>>> preferring to use one controller for both is that the
>>>>>> ratio of primary to secondary should always be the same
>>>>> The point is that the ratio is NOT to always be the same.
>>>>> Even the different packing of the fuel in to the TLUD can
>>>>> make primary air (PA) flow more easily, creating more
>>>>> gases and needing a change in secondary air (SA) to get
>>>>> optimal performance.
>>>>>
>>>>> Automobiles have sensors for all kinds of issues, with
>>>>> automated adjustments. Just not practical yet for
>>>>> cookstoves that need to be inexpensive. Bu who knows,
>>>>> someday solid biomass as initial fuel could be pyrolyzed
>>>>> and have the gases combusted in very controlled ways that
>>>>> would seem like Science Fiction if said today. I believe
>>>>> that it will be justified for the woodgas/TLUD stoves, but
>>>>> not for the old-hat ICS stoves, including rockets.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nathan Puffer''s work was not quantitatively evaluated.
>>>>> It was a demonstration that made its point but was not in
>>>>> a way that could be into large numbers of stoves at that
>>>>> time and still today.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>>>> Email:psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>
>>>>> Skype: paultlud Phone:+1-309-452-7072 <tel:%28309%29%20452-7072>
>>>>> Website:www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com/>
>>>>> On 4/29/2017 9:46 PM, Ronal W. Larson wrote:
>>>>>> Paul, cc Nathan and list
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for bringing up the two subjects of a) separately
>>>>>> controlling secondary air, and b) oily (mostly seed?) fuels.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree that we should be controlling secondary air, but
>>>>>> I am pretty sure that we should and can do this with the
>>>>>> same controller as for the primary air. Most TLUDs
>>>>>> already can and should control primary air, but make no
>>>>>> effort to control the secondary air. My reason for
>>>>>> preferring to use one controller for both is that the
>>>>>> ratio of primary to secondary should always be the same
>>>>>> if we want (or can live with) a fixed ratio for excess
>>>>>> air. One controller is cheaper and is easier for the
>>>>>> cook. Anyone disagree?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the subject of using Jaropha seeds, I am pretty sure
>>>>>> that we would need a larger amount of “secondary” air
>>>>>> than for non-oily fuels, but that there still could be a
>>>>>> single air controller (just with a larger SA/PA ratio [
>>>>>> maybe goes from about 6:1 up to 7:1 ??]. Note that these
>>>>>> oils cannot combust as they pass through the hot charcoal
>>>>>> above the downward moving pyrolysis front (no oxygen in
>>>>>> that stream). But I presume the temperature is enough
>>>>>> for them to arrive above the char as quite a different
>>>>>> set of gases. So, I’d like to hear more about what
>>>>>> Nathan found. Any cite we can look up?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with the rest of Paul’s comments. TLUDs are not
>>>>>> yet a mature technology - but it is growing up; it is
>>>>>> not standing still.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ron
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 29, 2017, at 8:14 AM, Paul Anderson
>>>>>>> <psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To all, 29 April 2017 [This note contains some new
>>>>>>> content and explanations for the advancement of TLUD
>>>>>>> stoves.]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. Ron: I and probably some others have successfully
>>>>>>> used dung as the input fuel into TLUDs. I am not
>>>>>>> recommending dung, but if it is being burned, then a
>>>>>>> TLUD is preferred for cleaner burning.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. AD: I agree with Ron that the TLUD stoves are
>>>>>>> better with both light and hard (heavy) wood than direct
>>>>>>> burning of them in any direct-burning (ICS) stove.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3. Main point, to Neil and all: TLUDs are not burning
>>>>>>> wood directly. TLUDs turn wood into gases. THEN the
>>>>>>> gases are burned. So poplar, maple, maize cobs, dung,
>>>>>>> etc. are ALL becoming gases first. THEN the burning of
>>>>>>> those gases might be somewhat different (but not as much
>>>>>>> as the direct burning of those diverse fuels).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TLUD stoves are just arriving into their "young-adult
>>>>>>> stage." In contrast: not infancy, not childhood,
>>>>>>> maybe still "youth", but certainly not full maturity,
>>>>>>> and a long way from the "old age" of the ICS "Inproved
>>>>>>> or Inadequate" direct-burning cookstoves. This is
>>>>>>> because we are still learning about better and better
>>>>>>> ways of mixing the combustible gases with the incoming
>>>>>>> secondary air (SA) (This is where the BURNING takes
>>>>>>> place to make the heat that goes to the pot. TLUDs are
>>>>>>> DIRECTLY burning GASES, not solid fuels. ) (Please
>>>>>>> see my "Classification of Stove Technology and Fuels"
>>>>>>> documents (1-page and 4-page versions) at
>>>>>>> http://www.drtlud.com/2017/04/11/classification-stove-technologies-fuels/
>>>>>>> <http://www.drtlud.com/2017/04/11/classification-stove-technologies-fuels/>
>>>>>>> )
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The _solid _wood and dung etc are an intermediate stage
>>>>>>> of the fuel. Sort of a "storage" stage. Then
>>>>>>> pyrolysis "transforms solids into gases plus charcoal".
>>>>>>> The created gases are then burned SEPARATELY (by
>>>>>>> centimeters and seconds, but certainly separately) from
>>>>>>> where the gases were created. We do not have clear
>>>>>>> terminology for this, in layman's terms. The closest
>>>>>>> might be "gas burning stoves that make their own gases."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, what development is happening in the early
>>>>>>> "young-adult" stage? Control of primary air, learning
>>>>>>> about solid "intermediate" fuels, and improving
>>>>>>> combustion of the gases, as well as "new clothes" with
>>>>>>> sizes and mateials.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Consider this: We have known of FA (forced air or fan
>>>>>>> assisted) TLUD stoves from the 1990s. And there has
>>>>>>> been much progress. But NO TLUD on the market has
>>>>>>> SEPARATE controls for "variable flows" of primary air
>>>>>>> (PA) and secondary air (SA). THAT control is what will
>>>>>>> make the difference regarding Neil's initial question
>>>>>>> that pointed to differences in the initial fuels (and
>>>>>>> therefore differences in the resultant gases and
>>>>>>> quantities of gases that are being burned.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Note that TLUDs can be made with different flows of PA
>>>>>>> ans SA by changing the sizes and number of holes. That
>>>>>>> is a form of "tuning" the TLUD for a specific fuel.
>>>>>>> This works great for one initial fuel, but only good but
>>>>>>> acceptable with other fringe fuels. I am NOT referring
>>>>>>> to that work as being "variable flows". I am referring
>>>>>>> to when the user can change the flows, even during one
>>>>>>> batch of fuel.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There has been some researach (mostly unreported and set
>>>>>>> aside) on variable control of primary and secondary air,
>>>>>>> using fans. I have experimented several times. The
>>>>>>> "million-dollar-grants" have had laboratory equipment
>>>>>>> with controlled and measured separate air flows. Nathan
>>>>>>> Puffer did it when we were looking at Jatropha SEEDS as
>>>>>>> a fuel. Seeds give off additional gases from the
>>>>>>> vaporization (not pyrolysis) of combustible vegetable
>>>>>>> oils (carbohydrates), which are much more plentiful in
>>>>>>> seeds than in stems and branches and leaves, thereby
>>>>>>> overwhelming the insufficient supply of SA in a
>>>>>>> "regular" TLUD-FA.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is a good reason to not have separate control of
>>>>>>> PA and SA. That reason is the user, the cook. To need
>>>>>>> to "dial-in" the right flow of SA (assuming PA flow
>>>>>>> stays the same) is, for the most part and for most
>>>>>>> non-scientist cooks, an extra task that could easily be
>>>>>>> done incorrectly. And there are the financial reasons
>>>>>>> of increased cost and maintenance.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But with "separate air-flow control" (not an established
>>>>>>> term and NOT justifying an acronym like SAC, as in
>>>>>>> TLUD-SAC), Neil or anyone could put many very different
>>>>>>> initial fuels into a TLUD and have greater control of
>>>>>>> the burning of the gases.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> More work is needed before TLUD stoves can reach their
>>>>>>> full potential, while growing in "young-adulthood".
>>>>>>> Today (2017), maybe 40% of what can be known about TLUD
>>>>>>> stoves is now known (but not necessarily put into
>>>>>>> practice by stove manufacturers).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (This note is being placed at the EPosts section of my
>>>>>>> website www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com/> so
>>>>>>> that it can be accessed continually instead of only one
>>>>>>> time on the Stove Listserv.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>>>>>> Email:psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>
>>>>>>> Skype: paultlud Phone:+1-309-452-7072 <tel:%28309%29%20452-7072>
>>>>>>> Website:www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Stoves mailing list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>>>>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>>>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>>>> <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information
>>>>>>> see our web site:
>>>>>>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>>>>>> <http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see
>> our web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> <http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ <http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/>
>>
> _______________________________________________ Stoves mailing
> list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change
> your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> site: http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> <http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20170501/3a0d7112/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 26813 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20170501/3a0d7112/attachment.jpe>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 26813 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20170501/3a0d7112/attachment-0001.jpe>
More information about the Stoves
mailing list