[Stoves] "Young-adult" TLUD research Re: List of woods for TLUDs?
Nikhil Desai
pienergy2008 at gmail.com
Wed May 3 14:04:10 CDT 2017
Todd:
You've got nerve, my God!
Wok cooking, canning, waffle making, gourmet salt block grilling!!
Not just boiling water?
I remember a video of Ranyee Chiang sweetly remembering of her grandmother's sticky rice. (For the record, I didn't like my grandmother's sticky rice.)
I don't think she could have moved her audience - except maybe some on this list - with stories of merely boiling water, not for making rice or tea.
You write, "The point is that different stove designs impact the cuisine and type of specific cooking you desire."
Amen.
Conversely, different cuisines and type of specific cooking (and timing) desired will determine the choice of stoves and fuels, operating habits, and fuel efficiencies and emission rates.
Someone in TC 285 needs to debate your proposition and mine for relevance to standard setting and market structures.
If only we could all agree, as I do with you, that "Each stove design has practical application and merits for the outcomes desired." And again, "Different types of stove designs, when used together, can also complement each other."
You are writing the first draft of re-education of biomass stovers. I think Robert van der Plas and many others will appreciate.
Nikhil
> On May 1, 2017, at 11:18 AM, Todd Albi <todd.r.albi at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ron & Paul:
>
> What exactly point are you making? We have a single ventilation knob control on our Super Dragon TLUD fan stove we have been selling since 2012. It has a single knob that adjusts both primary and secondary air, and is available with an optional pulse width modulator (fan speed control). Paul has one of these fan stove units, minus the important fan speed control. He never purchased the inline fan speed control (option) for the stove (only the stove) and he only can control primary & secondary mixing. That means he cannot maximize low and high fire power cooking control. The capacity to adjust primary and secondary air and fan speed both are very important.
>
> The high fire power with out the PWM allows for intense wok cooking, and by reducing the electronic signal with the optional PWM, means canning, waffle making or gourmet salt block grilling are possible. The fan speed control (allows high & low fire power cooking). Density of fuel is going to result is longer duration of burns in any type of stove (natural draft, fan, rocket or TLUD). We find that a force fan stove is going to override ventilation inside the combustion chamber to some degree, since air mixing is obviously increased. This is despite how combustion chamber was packed, since combustion is accelerated with a force air fan. Density of fuel is going to impact combustion.
>
> We also offer a TLUD forced fan grill that has 5 fan settings (speeds), but no has air mixing control. The point of the unit is to maximize high temperature searing, due to high cooking temperatures involved, not achievable with standard BBQ grill, that typically only reach 1/2 the grilling temperatures the forced fan grill reaches. The point is that different stove designs impact the cuisine and type of specific cooking you desire. Biomass stove designs vary significantly and have multiple pros and cons, depending on the outcome you are trying to achieve (cuisine, fuel use, etc...). Stove design choice is most important, not hanging your hat on a specific stove design (rocket stove, TLUD, Force Fan stove, or any other design). Different types of stove designs when used together, can also complement each other.
>
> For example a natural draft rocket stove used in unison with a natural draft TLUD may be ideal, with the former used to cook your breakfast quickly, while a large a large water bath used for sanitizing drinking water or cookware can sit unattended on the TLUD for long durations, may be ideal in an outdoor kitchen application, using natural draft stoves. Fan stoves are going to accommodate larger groups of folks, or increase speed of food preparation, if desired. Each stove design has practical application and merits for the outcome desired.
>
> Regards,
>
> Todd Albi, SilverFire
> <2016-07-17.jpg>
>
>
>
>
>> On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 9:14 PM, Ronal W. Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net> wrote:
>> Paul and ccs:
>>
>> I guess I don’t understand “that task that I suggested needs to be researched.”
>>
>> I contend that changing fuel density should not be an influential property.
>>
>> I am not suggesting that you wouldn’t need to change the SA/PA ratio a tad for different fuels.
>>
>> Thanks for reminding that the Mini Moto designers seem to be in agreement with me.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 30, 2017, at 9:46 PM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Ron,
>>>
>>> A single controller (that does not allow for changing the ratio and amount of air to PA and SA) is, by definition, unable to do that task that I suggested needs to be researched.
>>>
>>> And there certainly are SINGLE controls since the Woodgas campstove had 2 settings, and now Mimi-Moto has a dial with about 5 settings, but no change of ratio.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
>>> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>>> Website: www.drtlud.com
>>>> On 4/30/2017 5:13 PM, Ronal W. Larson wrote:
>>>> Paul, List and ccs:
>>>>
>>>> Well I haven’t heard a reason why my yesterday statement on only needing a single controller (limiting fuels to the non-oily variety) was incorrect.
>>>>
>>>> This is to hope we can have more discussion on this quite important point.
>>>>
>>>> I am quite sure I saw a TLUD design a few years ago that used a single air control. Anyone able to help?
>>>>
>>>> I don’t know anything about Nathan Puffer’s work.
>>>>
>>>> Ron
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 29, 2017, at 9:33 PM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Ron,
>>>>>
>>>>> I disagree. You wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> preferring to use one controller for both is that the ratio of primary to secondary should always be the same
>>>>> The point is that the ratio is NOT to always be the same. Even the different packing of the fuel in to the TLUD can make primary air (PA) flow more easily, creating more gases and needing a change in secondary air (SA) to get optimal performance.
>>>>>
>>>>> Automobiles have sensors for all kinds of issues, with automated adjustments. Just not practical yet for cookstoves that need to be inexpensive. Bu who knows, someday solid biomass as initial fuel could be pyrolyzed and have the gases combusted in very controlled ways that would seem like Science Fiction if said today. I believe that it will be justified for the woodgas/TLUD stoves, but not for the old-hat ICS stoves, including rockets.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nathan Puffer''s work was not quantitatively evaluated. It was a demonstration that made its point but was not in a way that could be into large numbers of stoves at that time and still today.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>>>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
>>>>> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>>>>> Website: www.drtlud.com
>>>>>> On 4/29/2017 9:46 PM, Ronal W. Larson wrote:
>>>>>> Paul, cc Nathan and list
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for bringing up the two subjects of a) separately controlling secondary air, and b) oily (mostly seed?) fuels.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree that we should be controlling secondary air, but I am pretty sure that we should and can do this with the same controller as for the primary air. Most TLUDs already can and should control primary air, but make no effort to control the secondary air. My reason for preferring to use one controller for both is that the ratio of primary to secondary should always be the same if we want (or can live with) a fixed ratio for excess air. One controller is cheaper and is easier for the cook. Anyone disagree?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the subject of using Jaropha seeds, I am pretty sure that we would need a larger amount of “secondary” air than for non-oily fuels, but that there still could be a single air controller (just with a larger SA/PA ratio [ maybe goes from about 6:1 up to 7:1 ??]. Note that these oils cannot combust as they pass through the hot charcoal above the downward moving pyrolysis front (no oxygen in that stream). But I presume the temperature is enough for them to arrive above the char as quite a different set of gases. So, I’d like to hear more about what Nathan found. Any cite we can look up?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with the rest of Paul’s comments. TLUDs are not yet a mature technology - but it is growing up; it is not standing still.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ron
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 29, 2017, at 8:14 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To all, 29 April 2017 [This note contains some new content and explanations for the advancement of TLUD stoves.]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. Ron: I and probably some others have successfully used dung as the input fuel into TLUDs. I am not recommending dung, but if it is being burned, then a TLUD is preferred for cleaner burning.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. AD: I agree with Ron that the TLUD stoves are better with both light and hard (heavy) wood than direct burning of them in any direct-burning (ICS) stove.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3. Main point, to Neil and all: TLUDs are not burning wood directly. TLUDs turn wood into gases. THEN the gases are burned. So poplar, maple, maize cobs, dung, etc. are ALL becoming gases first. THEN the burning of those gases might be somewhat different (but not as much as the direct burning of those diverse fuels).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TLUD stoves are just arriving into their "young-adult stage." In contrast: not infancy, not childhood, maybe still "youth", but certainly not full maturity, and a long way from the "old age" of the ICS "Inproved or Inadequate" direct-burning cookstoves. This is because we are still learning about better and better ways of mixing the combustible gases with the incoming secondary air (SA) (This is where the BURNING takes place to make the heat that goes to the pot. TLUDs are DIRECTLY burning GASES, not solid fuels. ) (Please see my "Classification of Stove Technology and Fuels" documents (1-page and 4-page versions) at http://www.drtlud.com/2017/04/11/classification-stove-technologies-fuels/ )
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The solid wood and dung etc are an intermediate stage of the fuel. Sort of a "storage" stage. Then pyrolysis "transforms solids into gases plus charcoal". The created gases are then burned SEPARATELY (by centimeters and seconds, but certainly separately) from where the gases were created. We do not have clear terminology for this, in layman's terms. The closest might be "gas burning stoves that make their own gases."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, what development is happening in the early "young-adult" stage? Control of primary air, learning about solid "intermediate" fuels, and improving combustion of the gases, as well as "new clothes" with sizes and mateials.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Consider this: We have known of FA (forced air or fan assisted) TLUD stoves from the 1990s. And there has been much progress. But NO TLUD on the market has SEPARATE controls for "variable flows" of primary air (PA) and secondary air (SA). THAT control is what will make the difference regarding Neil's initial question that pointed to differences in the initial fuels (and therefore differences in the resultant gases and quantities of gases that are being burned.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Note that TLUDs can be made with different flows of PA ans SA by changing the sizes and number of holes. That is a form of "tuning" the TLUD for a specific fuel. This works great for one initial fuel, but only good but acceptable with other fringe fuels. I am NOT referring to that work as being "variable flows". I am referring to when the user can change the flows, even during one batch of fuel.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There has been some researach (mostly unreported and set aside) on variable control of primary and secondary air, using fans. I have experimented several times. The "million-dollar-grants" have had laboratory equipment with controlled and measured separate air flows. Nathan Puffer did it when we were looking at Jatropha SEEDS as a fuel. Seeds give off additional gases from the vaporization (not pyrolysis) of combustible vegetable oils (carbohydrates), which are much more plentiful in seeds than in stems and branches and leaves, thereby overwhelming the insufficient supply of SA in a "regular" TLUD-FA.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is a good reason to not have separate control of PA and SA. That reason is the user, the cook. To need to "dial-in" the right flow of SA (assuming PA flow stays the same) is, for the most part and for most non-scientist cooks, an extra task that could easily be done incorrectly. And there are the financial reasons of increased cost and maintenance.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But with "separate air-flow control" (not an established term and NOT justifying an acronym like SAC, as in TLUD-SAC), Neil or anyone could put many very different initial fuels into a TLUD and have greater control of the burning of the gases.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> More work is needed before TLUD stoves can reach their full potential, while growing in "young-adulthood". Today (2017), maybe 40% of what can be known about TLUD stoves is now known (but not necessarily put into practice by stove manufacturers).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (This note is being placed at the EPosts section of my website www.drtlud.com so that it can be accessed continually instead of only one time on the Stove Listserv.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>>>>>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
>>>>>>> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>>>>>>> Website: www.drtlud.com
>>>>>>>
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>>
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