[Stoves] Upright split-log burning and "Stealth fires" and TLUD camping fires ... was Re: How to make smokeless coal?

Sat May 27 06:56:06 CDT 2017

Thanks for that Paul

I agree that the division into open v.s. enclosed fires is important from a taxonomy viewpoint.

The importance of the 1707 coke making patent is all the more relevant. It was intended to make coke - as much as possible - which can only be done in an enclosed device.

Neil is also looking...
Crispin

Stovers and campers:

Three parts to this message:
A,  Upright split-log burning  and
B.  "Stealth fires" and
C.  TLUD camping fires .

About A:   Neil wrote:
***********
Not sure if the so called 'Swedish log' counts as a TLUD?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lIWMKx8anI&feature=c4-overview&list=UUIq7
3l9XpOlq0LYP3l5tQPg

****************
PSA: There are probably many names (and origins)  (and suppliers) for the burning of upright split logs, as shown in the video.   But they are not TLUDs.   Not even ignited at the top.   It is a nice fire.   And very convenient.

*********
About B:  "Stealth fires"   also  from Neil:

Did anyone ever have a conversation with Paal Wendelbo about what he
might have known of the history or ubiquity of lighting fires from the
top in Norway?
************

>> PSA:  Everything Paal Wendelbo told me about the origins in Norway I have already written.   He did not elaborate more to me.   He did not use the term "stealth fire".   But I really like that term.   Note that it distinguishes a top lit fire that is in the open from a top lit fire that is in a container, which has become a gasifier device.  A gasifier means that the creation of the combustible gases occurs in a different place (different level) than does the burning of those gases.

This distinction between a "stealth fire" (in the open) and a TLUD GASIFIER (in a container) is fundamental!!!!   Wendelbo succeeded in putting a stealth fire into a container and accomplished something MORE than a containerized fire.   It happened to have the separation of the creation of the gases from the burning of the gases.   That was NOT Wendelbo's objective.  Wendelbo was not involved with "theory" or "science".   He was totally practical, to bring under control what he saw in his youth.  But what occurred is that the confinement of the stealth fire happened to have the necessary components to be a gasification device with a good fire, and he recognized it as being good.  He did not (at least not initially) recognize his accomplishment as a "gasifier" (in the scientific sense).

In contrast, Tom Reen never discussed stealth fires, but approached the science of gasification with a new twist, the IDD or Inverted DownDraft GASIFIER (now known as TLUD).

Two men with totally different approaches and backgrounds, both accomplished (devised, invented, initiated) essentially the same thing during the same time period (1985-2000).

**************
Neil wrote:
We have heard the Norwegian resistance stealth fires
story, which I found interesting in relation to Baden Powell who actually
describes bunking off into the woods while at boarding school and
lighting "stealth fires" and trapping and cooking rabbits, but then the
top lit idea is entirely missing from 'Scouting for Boys', and its hard
to imagine he would have known the technique but not shared it.
**********************

About C:  TLUD gasifiers as camping stoves.
Perhaps someone will do more study of "stealth fire".    But please do NOT start calling TLUDs to be "stealth" devices.

Note:  it is already known that when campgounds and parks prohibit "open fires" (therefore NO stealth fires are allowed, not even if in a "campfire ring"), the TLUD stoves are "contained fires" and can probably be allowed (check with your local authorities) , along with propane/LPG stoves and charcoal burners and alcohol stoves.

But for the visual benefits of seeing flames and having light from a fire at a camping event,  a TLUD can far exceed the fire-light from  LPG, alcohols and charcoal that show essentially no flames for ambience.!!!!!   And if the TLUD is operated "rich" (much gases because of primary air with relatively deficient secondary air), the visible flame grows taller (seeking oxygen in the ambient air), and gives more campfire-style light.   This is another topic for backpackers and campers to experience and to tell us about.  *****  But always be careful with fire!!!     We want TLUDs to be welcome and acceptable at campgrounds.!!!

Further note:  TLUDs as camping stoves do not send up sparks.   TLUDs burn gases.  The "sparky" particles of traditional wood-burning are absent.  This is extremely important for the prevention of forest fires/ grass-fires that are a danger from open campfires.

Paul

Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu<mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>
Skype:   paultlud    Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website:  www.drtlud.com<http://www.drtlud.com>

On 5/26/2017 4:59 AM, neiltm at uwclub.net<mailto:neiltm at uwclub.net> wrote:

On 25 May 2017 at 2:41, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:

Question for you: can you ask around some old-timers and find out where
the expression "Scotch method" comes from when referring to lighting a
fire on top in order to reduce smoke? This name arrived in Southern Africa
with people from Europe more than 100 years ago, 120 at least. But where
did it originate?

It doesn't seem to be within living memory of the 'old timers' I know in
Scotland I'm afraid, but they sent this:

Not sure if the so called 'Swedish log' counts as a TLUD?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lIWMKx8anI&feature=c4-overview&list=UUIq7
3l9XpOlq0LYP3l5tQPg

Finnish method ...used during Finnish Russian War according to this
chap...

Did anyone ever have a conversation with Paal Wendelbo about what he
might have known of the history or ubiquity of lighting fires from the
top in Norway?  We have heard the Norwegian resistance stealth fires
story, which I found interesting in relation to Baden Powell who actually
describes bunking off into the woods while at boarding school and
lighting "stealth fires" and trapping and cooking rabbits, but then the
top lit idea is entirely missing from 'Scouting for Boys', and its hard
to imagine he would have known the technique but not shared it.  He talks
of learning other fire techniques in India and SA, and from N American
Indians, and he had what he called and illustrated as the 'star fire', we
know as the three stone fire.  This suggests the approach did not spread
like wildfire exactly!  And then died out where it perhaps was once
adopted.  Why, since it is so obviously an excellent and useful fire
technique?  Haven't noticed Ray Mears using it, and he is a practical
reviver/rediscoverer of lost bushcraft.  I bet your old scout troop don't
light camp fires that way any more Crispin.

There seems to be a general hinting in the direction of Scandanavia as
possibly somewhere to focus on finding the origins, but probably also
China, and we know that this would have been multiply discovered, because
the TLUD has been as we know.

My first attempt at one of Paal's TL fires was a revelation, and the
first time I had ever lit an open fire, and it burned down to the end of
every stick, leaving just char and ash without once touching it after
lighting, and very little smoke.  In particular it burned the windward
side completely, the pyrolysis front moving against the side wind,
whereas with a conventional BL fire, the unburned wood has to be moved
over to the lee side. A pot hung from a tripod could have been well
placed over that fire.

I got my daughter trying it out in her open fireplace, and she was quite
pleased with the result.

The cheap Chinese ebay/amazon ND stoves have similarities to the prior
bushbuddy, but unlike the bushbuddy, they separate in the middle for
packing small, and the grate is different.  Since it emerged that these
are not cheap Chinese knock offs of the British stoves, but were the
original basis of those stoves, it seems likely to me at least, knowing
how good they are that some native Chinese expertise was brought to bear
on them.

Best wishes,   Neil Taylor

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