[Stoves] Understanding what TLUD means.... was Re: stoves and credits again

[Nikhil Desai]

I happen to agree with Ron here. Even if "From their very beginning, the
TLUD stoves have been char-making micro-gasifiers with a Migratory
Pyrolytic Front (MPF) with dry biomass fuel (that has not already been
pyrolyzed nor is even fossil coal)." is historically correct, it is a poor
justification for branding a particular product line.

I recognize Crispin and Ron have technical issues. I suggest that for
audiences outside this small group, TLUD v. TLOD v. CMS (char-making stove)
may make no difference.

An aside if you permit me:

I remember trying to market solar home systems with CFLs v. AC light-bulbs.
Then came LED lighting.

What really drove the market was TV.

Back in 2009, as I was trying to market LED lighting and phone charring
pico-PV systems, I had a suspicion that with mobile phones becoming radios,
tape recorders and players, even video recorders and players, live video
conversations and such, lighting was the last thing users would want; all
they wanted was a solar charger for their camera.

Then I came to the US and a young man showed me his phone and the light of
its screen (not a special light as some Nokia models already had), "Look,
one can read from this light."

There is still a small market for 35W and 50W Solar Home Systems in some
areas, but I think they are a legacy product.

Similarly, if char-making stoves advance the agenda for "clean cooking" --
since charcoal is definitely superior for cooking in "conventional"
(bucket-style adopted Jiko or such) stoves, a TLUD that allows making and
using a charcoal - in effect, a "stacking" that suits the users' needs for
flexibility, versatility, you have a winning idea on hand.

Forget efficiency competition, and forget Gold Standard/Kirk Smith mania
against "stacking" and even against charcoal.

Charcoal-making TLUD Stoves: I call them CTS for Clean, Trendy,Sustainable.

Go ahead, market. Rachel Kyte needs to hear that.

Nikhil




On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 8:30 PM, Ronal W. Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
wrote:

>  Paul:  cc List
>
> I agree with your view below.   Mainly the issue for both of us is whether
> char is saved.  I believe you have the correct historical position.
>
> But I have tried to avoid the term “TLUD” for a different reason:  any
> newcomer to what you call a TLUD will not know (from the name) that
> char-making is the key feature.  I prefer the term “char-making stove”.
>
> But this has its own problems - because Nat Mulcahy’s World Stove does a
> very nice job as well at “char-making” and cooking.  And it is NOT top-lit,
> nor updraft.   Hence we sometimes have used the term “TLOD”.   (To those
> who have not heard of Nat’s clever approach - a flame cap prevents oxygen
> from being a part of the flux of nitrogen and carbon dioxide that is drawn
> down through fuel bed because of clever means of controlling pressures.
>  “O” for opposite direction - inside is down, outside is up.]
>
> The reason that Crispin’s VESTO “fails” in the definition that you and I
> prefer is that there are numerous side holes (can’t be called either
> primary or secondary - as they serve both functions) through the metal
> chamber surrounding the fuel bed.  It was apparently deliberately designed
> to ensure minimum char production.  Advance apologies to Crispin if I have
> the VESTO intent wrong.  I agree that it creates confusion to call the
> VESTO a TLUD after the long delay you have identified.
>
> Ron
>
>
> On Sep 30, 2017, at 3:38 PM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
>
> Crispin,
>
> You are just playing with words and causing confusion.   In 2005 when
> "TLUD" was first used for the Champion stove at Aprovecho Stove camp, the
> meaning was clear.   For many years (let's say to about 2012,) only me and
> a few others were using the TLUD name, and it was always as I have been
> defining the stoves and technology.
>
> I seem to remember that your discussions about your Vesto stove included
> an option for gasification similar to what is in the TLUD stoves that I
> showed to you.  But I do not remember you using the "TLUD" name or wanting
> to be associated with TLUD specifications.
>
> But as the TLUD stoves showed their capabilities and gained acceptance,
> various stove makers have found it desirable to be a gasifier stove and
> some people started to use the TLUD name, sometimes even when the use of
> their stove was different from what they were copying.   So we get all
> these variations.
>
> And now you are especially agressive to attach the TLUD name to anything
> that you declare should or could be top lit with updraft.   The TLUD name
> is being attached to those stoves by YOU.   The originators of most of
> those stoves are not using any "TLUD"  designation.   For some of them that
> are significantly different, why would they even  want to be called a TLUD
> stove?    Again, "TLUD" is no longer an acronym.   It is a real name with a
> meaning.   Even KCJ (which stands for Kenyan Ceramic Jiko) refers to a
> rather specific type of stove, and the designation of KCJ should not be
> applied to any and all stoves that are made in  Kenya with  ceramics.
> Similarly, the designation of TLUD should not be applied to any and all
> stoves (or boyscout fires) that are ignited at the top and have upward
> moving air (which is natural flow of heated air).
>
> You are just causing confusion.   I have known you so long ( I believe we
> met in 2002 in Swaziland) and we are certainly solid friends.
> Unfortunately,  I am quite sure that you will continue your misleading
> usage of the TLUD name.   (Please do not do that.)  I can only hope that
> your point of view is ignored.  And that you are not called upon to be the
> stove specialist to advise government officials and NGOs regarding the
> various types of micro-gasification.
>
> From their very beginning, the TLUD stoves have been char-making
> micro-gasifiers with a Migratory Pyrolytic Front (MPF) with dry biomass
> fuel (that has not already been pyrolyzed nor is even fossil coal).   The
> true TLUD stoves (original definition) do not need a new name or a modified
> name.
>
> Paul
>
> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
> Skype:   paultlud    Phone: +1-309-452-7072 <(309)%20452-7072>
> Website:  www.drtlud.com
>
>
>
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