[Stoves] Calculating cooking costs and char costs ----Re: [biochar] Where to discuss STOVES AND CARBON offsets and drawdown
Paul Anderson
psanders at ilstu.edu
Fri Sep 15 21:02:53 CDT 2017
Kevin,
> Note also that the purpose of this particular Spread Sheet was to give
> an approximate value to char produced by TLUD’s.
In that regard, char value is a function of char yield and biomass fuel
cost. The number of meals cooked would not then an issue, and the
spreadsheet contains cells that are derived but are not part of the
"solution." Too much "extra" that is not needed in the spreadsheet.
If the purpose is to bring in also the number of meals, then there is
more work to be done. Forexample, it is not as simple as the
assumption that energy needed per meal served would be the same for
cooking with the pyrolytic gases as for cooking with the charcoal fuel.
Therefore the spreadsheet contains too few actual "variables", most of
which could be strongly impacted by the socio-cultural context. This
would be not enough "extra" that should be put into the spreadsheet.
You have made your point that it is possible that the value of the char
from a TLUD stove might be greater if burned than if sequestered into
soil as biochar. This can be discussed in general terms. It will not
be resolved with a refined quantitative / financial analysis. The
question remains open: How is the value of char from a more efficient
cookstove (TLUD vs 3-stone) to be judged?
Paul
Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: www.drtlud.com
On 9/15/2017 5:35 PM, kchisholm at seaside.ns.ca [biochar] wrote:
>
> Hi Nikhil
>
> I used the term “mealtime” more in the context of a “cooking session”.
> Clearly, a number of meals would be required at “mealtime.”
>
> Knowing the number of meals prepared at the “mealtime”, one can then
> determine the wood consumption per meal, and ultimately, the “energy
> per meal.”
>
> Note also that the “energy per meal” must be used with caution, in
> that it will vary with the nature of the meal. For example, a meal of
> rice and fish could require a different cooking time than when
> simmering a stew or boiling eggs.
>
> Note also that the purpose of this particular Spread Sheet was to give
> an approximate value to char produced by TLUD’s. Would you have any
> further comments or suggestions in how to improve it in this regard?
>
> Thanks, and Best wishes,
>
> Kevin
>
> *From:*Nikhil Desai [mailto:pienergy2008 at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, September 15, 2017 6:09 PM
> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Cc:* kchisholm at seaside.ns.ca; biochar <biochar at yahoogroups.com>; Hugh
> McLaughlin <hsmclaughlin at verizon.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Calculating cooking costs and char costs
> ----Re: [biochar] Where to discuss STOVES AND CARBON offsets and drawdown
>
> Paul:
>
> Two comments:
>
> 1. If "mealtime" refers to a day (and 3 cooked meals per day), 1 kg
> wood per day seems to be on the low side, unless it is per capita. I
> remember that a "rule of thumb" (or "expert estimate") back when
> people prepared national energy balances, was "1-2 kg wood _per
> capita_ per day". Of course, the gross input per family depends on
> many factors including efficiency, types of cooking tasks, age/sex
> composition, ambient temperature and wind patterns, and cook's whims;
> however, if the per family net energy per mealtime is 3.7 kWht or
> 5,750 Btu, I suspect the family may be too poor to afford enough food
> from scratch - relying on more fresh vegetables or uncooked materials
> or on partially prepared purchased food.
>
> This single number -- how much useful (net) energy per family per year
> is "required" on average in a given context - would seem to be very
> useful, with some assumed efficiencies, for computations of emissions
> and deforestation or loads carried on heads or backs. But I have seen
> very few such attempts. Any thoughts? I will dig up some GACC studies.
>
> 2. The way the spreadsheet is set up, the financial cost of fuelwood
> is the most critical assumed parameter for the breakeven carbon credit
> value (CCV). Only at $0.02/kg cost of high-quality wood does the CCV
> come close to today's price in the EU ETS. Since the supply curves for
> both wood and labor are likely to at least somewhat upward sloping,
> the question becomes, what is the potential - in global terms - for
> biochar to compete with other CDR options?
>
> It would seem that biochar for CDR and charmaking for local sales (as
> fuel) are two entirely separate markets and will probably remain that
> way for a long while.
>
> Does anybody have a good number for useful cooking energy per
> household per year?
>
> Nikhil
>
> On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 10:53 PM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu
> <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>> wrote:
>
> Kevin,
>
> Thanks for the spreadsheet. This is an interesting situation
> where calculated numbers are not matching with some human
> activities about the value of charcoal.
>
> This discussion is only with the Biochar group, so I am adding the
> Stoves Listserv and attaching the spreadsheet.
>
> Notes;
>
> The use of BTU/LB in columns H and I should be in the green
> (calculated) values and the corresponding metric units (which you
> provide) should be the yellow variables that can be entered. Please.
>
> I notice that changes in the Value of unburned char/kg (C23 ) is
> essentially linked to the cost of fuel wood (C5) , and therefore
> virtually dictate the conclusion of carbon credit pricing needed
> (C28 ). So, the price stays quite high.
>
> ****************
> A. Consider the case of the cook who has no real use for the
> char, which means that the cost of fuel is 100% allocated to the
> cooking, and the resultant char has zero value. To that cook
> there is no trade-off about char being used for cooking other
> meals. Selling the char is "pure profit", whether it is a
> calculated value of $0.16/kg (as in C26) or merely $0.12/kg as in
> Deganga, India, or only $0.08/kg which is still better than nothing.
>
> B. Current "traditional" cooking with charcoal that is produced
> by generally inefficient "traditional" char-making methods would
> have a char yield (C6) of between 10% (burning too much to ash)
> and 25% (leaving volatiles in the char, or even some incomplete
> pyrolysis/torrification).
>
> C. But for those people who produce traditional char, the "cost
> of fuel wood" (C5) could be as low as zero (illegal cutting or
> destructive cutting) or some notional value of the time spent to
> make the charcoal.
>
> Others need to comment also.
>
> Paul
>
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>
> Email:psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>
>
> Skype: paultlud Phone:+1-309-452-7072 <tel:%28309%29%20452-7072>
>
> Website:www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com>
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Pa
>
> *From:*biochar at yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com>[mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com]
>
> *Sent:* Monday, September 11, 2017 4:02 PM
> *To:* Hugh McLaughlin <hsmclaughlin at verizon.net>
> <mailto:hsmclaughlin at verizon.net>; biochar at yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [biochar] Where to discuss STOVES AND
> CARBON offsets and drawdown
>
> Hugh and Kevin,
>
> First to Hugh: Why do you write
>
> $0.10/kg is a more reasonable assumption.
>
> when that is what Kevin actually said.
>
> Then to Kevin: Actually, it the char yield is 20% per kg
> of fuel (closer to actual than is 25% or 30%), then the
> number becomes $US 250 per tonne of char = $US250/3.42 =
> $US 73.10 per tonne of CO2 equivalent.
>
> To all: As reported in the Deganga Case Study (page 4,
> 3rd paragraph), in that case study the people *were
> actually paying US$0.075 per kg of firewood.* And they
> burn 3 to 4 kg per day (which is less than half of
> baseline fuel consumption). Note: 4 kg of firewood at
> 20% char yield would be about 0.8 kg of char per day
> (matches the measured quantities of char purchased from
> the households).
>
> And they were receiving payment of $0.12 per kg of char
> via the "Earn while you cook" arrangements (page 4, second
> paragraph from the bottom of the page), which would be
> $0.04 per 0.3 kg (just citing Kevin's initial number for
> some comparison) or $0.024 per 0.2 kg (the approximate
> actual char production per day of cooking.).
>
> Can we use some of these above numbers and send a revised
> statement, please?
>
> And if the point is still
>
> it is more advantageous for the Cook to burn it [the
> char] for another meal.
>
> then why are the people so delighted with the charcoal
> buyback? ( ?? cultural reasons??? such as not having a
> tradition of cooking with charcoal at the household level
> (true) ... or their perception of the value of a few
> cents is greater than their perception of the expense of
> the cooking task? ... or some other reason(s) ???
>
> All are welcome to comment, please.
>
> Paul
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>
> Email:psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>
>
> Skype: paultlud Phone:+1-309-452-7072 <tel:%28309%29%20452-7072>
>
> Website:www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com>
>
> On 9/11/2017 1:22 PM, Hugh McLaughlin wrote:
>
> ERRATA: $10/tonne is $0.01/kg.
>
> If there is any transportation, $100/tonne or the
> basis used for the calculation: $0.10/kg is a more
> reasonable assumption.
>
> Hugh McLaughlin, PhD, PE
>
> CTO - NextChar.com
>
> On Monday, September 11, 2017 2:03 PM,
> "kchisholm at seaside.ns.ca [biochar]"
> <mailto:kchisholm at seaside.ns.ca[biochar]><biochar at yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com>wrote:
>
> Hi Paul
>
> Assume that such fuelwood costs $US10 per tonne, or
> $US.10 per kg.
>
> Assume that 1 kg of such wood is “burned” in a TLUD,
> to cook a meal, and that there is .25 kg char yield.
>
> Assume also that the char could be used to cook a
> second meal.
>
> The cost of fuel per meal is thus $US.10, if the char
> is not used for cooking, OR, it is $US.05 if the char
> is subsequently used to cook a second meal.
>
> Thus, if somebody gave the Cook $US.05 for the .3 kg
> of char, the Cook could be “revenue neutral”.
>
> Thus, the cost of “Carbon Credits” that reaches the
> actual Cook should be a minimum of $US.05/.3 kg char =
> $US.167 per kg char, or $US167 per tonne char =
> $US167/3.42 = approximately $US48.80 per tonne of CO2
> equivalent.
>
> CONCLUSION: With the costing and performance
> assumptions shown above, unless the Cook gets more
> than the equivalent of $US48.80 per tonne CO2 carbon
> credits, it is not advantageous for the Cook to “sell”
> the char… it is more advantageous for the Cook to burn
> it for another meal.
>
> Does this make sense to you?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Kevin
>
> *From:*biochar at yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com>[mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com]
>
> *Sent:* Monday, September 11, 2017 11:53 AM
> *To:* biochar at yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com>; Doc Anderson
> <psanders at ilstu.edu> <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [biochar] Where to discuss STOVES AND
> CARBON offsets and drawdown
>
> Dear Shengar,
>
> Thank you for the input.
>
> World figures are that about 3 billion persons have
> meals prepared on solid fuel (mostly biomass). Family
> size (especially HOUSEHOLD size, referring to the
> number of people who eat together) should be 5 or 6,
> which would put the number of households between 600
> million and 500 million. Those are the numbers that I
> prefer to use.
>
> I agree with nearly a kilo of char produced per day
> per TLUD stove (confirmed in Deganga, India, study).
> 365 days would yield about a third of on ton of char
> per household. 3 household become a ton/yr. 30,000 HH
> would be 10,000 tons. 300,000,000 HH (about half of
> the needed cookstoves) would be 100,000,000 tons.
>
> So it would take 10 years to reach one GIGA ton, which
> is 1,000,000,000 tons. (Please check my math.)
>
> In the Drawdown project, the time period is 2020
> to2050, which is 3 decade, or "potentially" 3 gigatons
> of char sequestration.
>
> 3 GT is only 1/5th of the GT calculated for ALL
> cookstoves, and over 3 times more that what was
> calcualted for ALL biochar by 2050. Clearly there is
> more to the drawdown calculations than the simple
> numbers above.
>
> Paul
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>
> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>
>
> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> <tel:%28309%29%20452-7072>
>
> Website: www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com/>
>
> On 9/11/2017 1:27 AM, shengar shengar at aol.com
> <mailto:shengar at aol.com>[biochar] wrote:
>
> The ballpark numbers I think Albert Bates has
> crunched but I play with these numbers:
>
> About 1 billion households cook with biomass, so
> if all had TLUDs, producing about a kilo per day
> of biochar that would be some one million tons per
> day, 365 million tons per year, a gigaton of CO2
> every 3 years. (accounting for other greenhouse
> gas reductions when biochar is put in soil)
> And increased rates of soil carbon sequestration
>
> On Sep 10, 2017 at 9:29 AM, <Paul Anderson
> psanders at ilstu.edu [biochar]
> <mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com>> wrote:
>
> Dear Stovers and Biochar folk,
>
> The financial part of advancing the TLUD stove
> situation (IMO) keeps coming back to the value
> of carbon offsets generated. But that topic is
> too thinly related to the purpose of the
> Stoves Listserv or the Biochar Listserve. So I
> will sending this message.
>
> The _stoves-related carbon-issues discussion
> _(generating carbon credits, global drawdown,
> etc) need discussion. So I request some
> assistance to find where this can be
> discussed. Does such a place already exist?
>
> Also, who among us want to be into that OTHER
> discussion? Paul, Ron, and who else?
>
> Paul
>
> --
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>
> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
> <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>
>
> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> <tel:%28309%29%20452-7072>
>
> Website: www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com/>
>
>
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