[Stoves] stoves and credits again

Ronal W. Larson rongretlarson at comcast.net
Wed Sep 27 21:48:18 CDT 2017


Todd cc list

  	First to say that you have a nice website.    I first viewed a video on your Rocket product - and so was surprised at your web site to see several TLUDs.  I would be most interested in test results where you could give us the char amount when the pyrolysis front has hit bottom.  I presume easy to do.  This would answer the question of what the “denominator equation” would produce for your efficiency under that scenario.  I guess it would improve upon your presently identified 35% (Tier 3).  More questions also below.

See below


> On Sep 27, 2017, at 7:18 PM, Todd Albi <todd.r.albi at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Crispin is correct.  Running TLUD’s in efficient cook stoves produce little, if any char. 
	[RWL1:  Most TLUD advocates would not understand the “little char” comment.  The question is whether your stoves could be labeled more efficient than 35% if the char was rescued.

> Our most efficient Super Dragon Fan Stove or Teg Fan Stove, or the Cook Air Fan grill we offer leave only small amounts of fine ash and have no value producing char. 
	[RWL2:  Have you any evidence that any of yourTLUDs that have been sold might have operated in a char-saving mode?  To place the char in the ground as biochar?

> In fact, one could contend that a cook stove that produces lots of char is actually impeding both ventilation and heat transfer to the pot.
	[RWL3:   This is a new concept to me.  Can you explain why this is so?

> 
> Our natural draft Scout trekking gasifier and larger natural insulated Hunter chimney stove also leave primarily ash and extremely little char, the fuel is maximized for cooking, not char production. .  

	
	[RWL4:   No dispute on that for the way you are operating them.  The question is what market might exist for operating the exact same TLUD stoves in a way to maximize char.  I get the sense from your web site that your primary market is US.  How many of your stoves are used in developing countries?

	

> We’d contend efficient cooking and making char is two opposing value outcomes.
	[RWL5:  No disagreement from me on this.  When I started on this in about 1992, my sole motivation was to be able to avoid the wholesale destruction of forests to make charcoal.  Still true, but now more emphasis on the climate side.  In this country,  I can’t make the forest saving argument, and really not the climate argument,  but maybe the soil improvement argument for your US buyers might work.
	I once talked to the Dutch developer of the Phillips stove.  He only operated his (I believe daily) in a char-saving mode - although they are seldom advertised that way (being fan powered).

	So in sum,  I have no quarrel with anything you are doing or saying.  But it would me mighty interesting to know whether you could beat your 35% efficiency number by not consuming all the produced char - in the very low power mode you describe on your site, after the high power start.

Thanks for the added input.  Good luck on your sales.  Response next to the Crispin note you are responding to.
Ron

> 
> Regards,
> 
> Todd Albi, SilverFire
> 
> <Teg4.jpg>
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 3:30 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispinpigott at outlook.com <mailto:crispinpigott at outlook.com>> wrote:
> Dear Ron
> 
>  
> 
> >No one would ever want to run a TLUD without making char.  They do horribly in combusting the char.  
> 
>  
> 
> Our experiences differ.  We received stoves for testing the in CSI Pilot in Central Java that not only made char then burned it and the char could be forwarded to the next replication of the cooking sequence. Stoves that could do that were, according to the rules of engagement, tested with a fuel load that included recycled fuel from a previous burn, during all evaluations. Fuel consumption is the requirement for additional fuel sourced outside the cooking system needed to replicate a cooking sequence in any of a series of identical replications, save the first. The ‘save the first’ refers to stoves such as the TLUD’s that can burn charcoal, which can use remnant fuel in the next replication of the test. All stick-burning stoves were tested in this manner as well, if they could use partially combusted fuel.
> 
>  
> 
> The lab staff in Yogyakarta, in spite of the relative simplicity of the lab, were able to get very tight groupings of test results even though the ‘forwarded fuel’ varied a bit in mass and composition.
> 
>  
> 
> It can be argued that the correct assessment for such a series of test replicates is to average the entire set into a single result, rather than ‘averaging’ the averages produced individually for each test. I favour this approach as it has a sound logical basis.
> 
>  
> 
> PL >>I am not certain of the physical meaning of the (1-e2) equation.
> 
>                 >[RWL6:  I hope you will try to learn of its importance.  (Essentially important only in tier rankings.)  
> 
>  
> 
> Tier ranks have nothing to do with that equation. The formula is a postulate with no sound physical basis. That is why no examples could be found outside the WBT using it as an efficiency calculation. Please refer to Tami’s recent categorical re-statement of her message earlier this year.
> 
>  
> 
> It is only ‘important’ to those who wish a 25% efficient stove to be reported as having an efficiency of 50%. It is more important that such pseudo-science be stopped in its tracks.
> 
>  
> 
> Regards
> 
> Crispin
> 
>  
> 
> 
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