[Stoves] Fwd: stoves and credits again

Thu Sep 28 19:02:03 CDT 2017

Todd:

I suspect in most contexts, "Efficient small household cook stoves have
limited value producing meaningful volumes of biochar".

For reasons I mentioned in my reply to Andrew on Rachel Kyte's recent
speech, I am not surprised "A 3 brick fire is free and an efficient stove
is way down the list of priorities for the poor."

Grid electrification will take the bulk of money and attention in Myanmar
or most other places. Serious, patient grant donors should come forth with
offers to support stoves programs as "modernizing livelihoods", designed
for particular contexts as "cooking energy systems", where food and water
security are not compromised.

I emphasize "food and water" because there is no point obsessing over
sustainable energy when sustaining life is a problem and because proximity
to running tap water, even a few hours a day, changes the cycle of cooking
and all related kitchen work (washing food items to pots, plates and
floors; and using water to cook or heat for other uses).

I submit "human environment" -- the immediate residential area with its
conveniences (or not), and neighborhood/locality - should and will take
priority over "global environment". That is both moral and practical.

Nikhil

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 5:46 PM, Ronal W. Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
wrote:

> List:
>
> Apologies for several extraneous messages -but I think at some point we
> will have photos as well.
>
> Ron
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> *From: *Andrew Heggie <aj.heggie at gmail.com>
> *Subject: **Re: Fwd: [Stoves] stoves and credits again*
> *Date: *September 28, 2017 at 1:34:55 PM MDT
> *To: *"Ronal W. Larson" <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
>
> Ronal I am away for some days and cannot do much on this phone. suggest
> you reply to Todd and add stoves.  This should strip the pictures. Andrew
>
> On 28 Sep 2017 19:44, "Ronal W. Larson" <rongretlarson at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Andrew, cc Todd   (with intent for all below to go to the list)
>>
>> I believe this response to me (alone) is worthy of going to the full
>> list.  But I fear the 4 photos would exceed the list limit.  Can you figure
>> out a mode that will allow the photos to be seen some way?  Nice photos.
>>
>>
>> Todd - I can understand your position on char-making.  To make TLUDs
>> work, we need stove users to understand the value of char in soil.
>> Helpful, but probably not essential when #1 is happening, will be
>> incentives.
>>
>> I just read today of France establishing a tax of more than 30 Euro’s per
>> tonne CO2, almost tripling by 2022 (https://www.reuters.com/artic
>> le/france-budget-carbon/update-2-france-raises-carbon-taxes-
>> to-repay-edf-renewables-debt-idUSL8N1M832O).  Multiply by about 3 (later
>> 10 and more) to get the value of charcoal - about 0.10 Euros per kg.  I
>> predict this will be enough to get your stove clients to prefer TLUDs to
>> Rockets.  In your opinion: is this enough to have your clients in Myanmar
>> (or anywhere) think about this low-cost means of cooking?
>>
>> I hope you can do the small test I ask about below:  testing any of your
>> TLUD models for the amount of char produced so we could compare (using the
>> “denominator equation”) with your other data when you “burn” the char in
>> the smoldering fashion you described.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>> *From: *Todd Albi <todd.r.albi at gmail.com>
>> *Subject: **Re: [Stoves] stoves and credits again*
>> *Date: *September 27, 2017 at 11:32:11 PM MDT
>> *To: *"Ronal W. Larson" <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
>>
>> Ron:
>>
>> We have *no interest in char production*, our focus is *cooking.  *We
>> would consider very large retorts on very large institutional stoves or
>> larger more suitable for bio char production.  Efficient small household
>> cook stoves have limited value producing meaningful volumes of biochar in
>> our opinion.  Our stoves produce primarily fine ash in very small
>> quantities.  Our fan stove is producing maybe a 1/2 tsp of fine ash, not
>> much of a market, I assure you.  We would be wasting our time quantifying
>> char outcomes on any of our stoves.
>>
>> You'll notice that our rocket stove has a door that is always falling
>> down on the fuel, that creates and reflects a hotter fire in the combustion
>> chamber intentionally.  Your ancestors cooked on their wood stoves with the
>> doors shut not open. Or at least with the dampner significantly reduced to
>> achieve a hotter fire.  If the doors had been left open, colder air is
>> accessing the firebox, allowing larger char formation which is impeding
>> ventilation in the firebox, reducing heat transfer to the cooking vessel.
>> Our ancestors knew if they were good stewards of there stove they had less
>> of a burden cleaning their stoves with only fine ash to sweep out when
>> cleaning stove.  Large char formation would have been also meant more labor
>> for cooks.  I recall my grandmother chasing me away from her wood stove
>> with a wood spoon if touched her stove or tried to adjust dampness while
>> cooking.
>>
>> Our markets with SilverFire is mixed, both developed and developing
>> markets.  Our most recent developed nation stove implementation in 2017 was
>> 10,000 stoves to Myanmar, with the participation of the Chinese
>> government.  The GACC showed up, (*not at the stove demonstration
>> sessions with the Myanmar Forest Service*), but only post stove
>> demonstrations, at the official glad-handing ceremonial government
>> function, to discuss policy with micro financing partners in tow.  I
>> predict there will not be much success due to financial constraints and
>> cell phones are more a priority and the abundance of free bricks
>> available.  A 3 brick fire is free and an efficient stove is way down the
>> list of priorities for the poor.
>> 
>> Most folks are cooking outdoors.
>>
>>
>> This last photo is one of the only indoor stoves & pantry I could locate
>> for multiple families.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Todd
>>
>>
>>
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