[Stoves] AVUD gasifier (Subject corrction because the Biomass furnace is NOT TLUD Re: Top lit updraft combustors
Paul Anderson
psanders at ilstu.edu
Wed Jan 24 20:05:26 CST 2018
Dear Steven,
I have copied this message (and yours below) to my partner, Paul Wever,
President of Chip Energy.
Please note the change in the Subject title: We are NOT discussing a
TLUD cookdstove. We are discussing what is called "AVUD" (Another
Variaion UpDraft) gasification. It is part of the article at:
http://www.drtlud.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/BP53-Anderson-14.pdf
That article was written before we made the larger Biomass Furnace.
The Chip Energy Biomass Furnace could be rated at 50 kW thermal as it
currently stands. And we have results from a thrid-party evaluator of
the emissions.. But we have not done any USEPA standards tests. And
we are not planning on such standards testing. That could be done in
conjunction with an Ontario entity.
And as I mentioned, there is a fullly functional unit available in a 20
ft shipping container.
Any assistance that you or others could provide would be appreciated.
Paul
Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: www.drtlud.com
On 1/23/2018 12:03 PM, Law, Steven (MOECC) wrote:
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> Is your Chip Energy system certified to any USEPA performance
> standard? We make use of US standards for wood heating devices in our
> building code.
>
> Also, we have a new regulation that says any clean wood heating device
> is exempt from the air quality regulation if the heat output is a
> maximum of 50 kW thermal, otherwise you will have to get some kind of
> air quality permit, depending on a number of factors.
>
> So, if your device can be “rated” to a maximum of 50 kW thermal output
> (or less) and be certified to the US standards as last referenced in
> Ontario’s building code, you might have a case for selling your
> technology to customers in Ontario.
>
> I hope this is helpful, let us know if you wish to discuss further.
>
> Best regards, Steven
>
> *From:*Paul Anderson [mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu]
> *Sent:* January 18, 2018 2:26 PM
> *To:* Sauve, Terrence (OMAFRA); Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> *Cc:* mhatech at yahoogroups.com; Andrew Heggie; Law, Steven (MOECC);
> Ronal W. Larson
> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Top lit updraft combustors
>
> Dear Terrence and Steven,
>
> I am glad to assist with the masonary heating system. Also nice to
> discover your initial and on-going interests:
>
> Steven and I are focusing on biomass hot water heating systems for
> multi-urban, institutional and commercial project size
>
> About THAT topic, I have additional inputs to share with you. In a
> separate effort from my cookstoves work, a few years back my partner
> Paul Wever and I created Chip Energy (Illinois company) and developed
> the Chip Energy Biomass Furnace. Beautiful for making the hot water
> heating systems!!! I can certainly be scaled up. Hard to make
> smaller unless the price does not go down much.
>
> You can read about it at www.chipenergy.com
> <http://www.chipenergy.com> Four were made. One that is complete
> in a 20 ft shipping container is currently available (about
> US$45,000), and certainly can be seen in operation, including at Chip
> Energy in Goodfield, Illinois. Produces about 50 - 60 KW thermal
> (>200,000 BTU/hr). Are you interested in the smaller end of the
> range of such water heating systems? Yes, it does produce
> charcoal, with even the ability to adjust char characteristics related
> to the temperature of char creation.
>
> With that introduction to express my interest in your work, please
> send me information about your interests in biomass hot water heating
> systems. SIZE is a major distinguishing factor.
>
> Paul
>
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> Email:psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>
> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website:www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com>
>
> On 1/18/2018 11:08 AM, Sauve, Terrence (OMAFRA) wrote:
>
> Hi Paul, this is interesting and very new to us.
>
> I was lucky to participate in Crispin’s stove testing camp in
> Eastern Ontario a couple of years ago. This was my first
> introduction to third-world country design and measurements for
> stoves, as well as more typical NA stoves.
>
> Steven and I are focusing on biomass hot water heating systems for
> multi-urban, institutional and commercial project size so we will
> have to spend more time understanding how masonry heaters and
> smaller residential stoves all work out.
>
> We will be participating on the update of CSA B415.1-10 standard,
> which should be revived at a certain point. I imagine and strongly
> recommend that any North American resident should be interested in
> its development, now that it’s an official reference in the US EPA
> NSPS regulation for residential forced-air wood furnaces (cordwood
> and pellet). Also, the stack loss method is used to report stove
> efficiency, since we don’t assume a blanket 75% HHV for all EPA
> Phase II certified stoves…
>
> Thanks and looking forward to hear your interests and
> developments. I am a past listserv reader (gasification, biogas,
> stoves) back in the day when I was at university…
>
> Terrence
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
>
> Terrence Sauvé, M.Sc., P.Eng.
>
> OMAFRA
>
> www.linkedin.com/in/terrence-sauve-4703
>
> Tél. (613) 679-4703
>
> *From:*Paul Anderson [mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu]
> *Sent:* December-19-17 4:04 PM
> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; Ronal W. Larson
> *Cc:* mhatech at yahoogroups.com <mailto:mhatech at yahoogroups.com>;
> Sauve, Terrence (OMAFRA); Andrew Heggie; Law, Steven (MOECC)
> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Top lit updraft combustors
>
> Nolbert and all,
>
> I just want to thank you and the others for looking into the use
> of TLUD technology for masonary heaters. Nice website for the MH
> Association http://www.mha-net.org/
>
> I would be delighted to work with you and the MHA in any ways that
> incorporate either TLUD stove technology or other methods (such as
> modified flame cap that is not yet being studied) that emphasize
> pyrolysis and therefore also have strong interest in the resultant
> charcoal. Maybe there is or will be a small group of such
> enthusiasts. If so, count me in.
>
> I live in Illinois, but that puts me into the North America focus
> of your group!!
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>
> Email:psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>
>
> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>
> Website:www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com>
>
> On 12/17/2017 7:38 AM, Norbert Senf wrote:
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 10:12 PM, Ronal W. Larson
> <rongretlarson at comcast.net <mailto:rongretlarson at comcast.net>>
> wrote:
>
> Norbert cc Biochar list, Andrew, MHA (Masonry Heating
> Association) list, and Terrence and Steven
>
> 1. Hello to MHA and Terrence and Steven - who I see are in
> Ontario Government departments. Feel free to jump in.
>
> 2, I am particularly thinking of folks in Ontario modifying
> MHA systems so they produce char (mostly to go in the soil).
> I believe MH users could find that fuel costs could become
> negative. (This idea thanks to Andrew) The fuel piles will
> have to be larger or re-fired more often - but these
> char-makers seem to be cleaner.
>
> I think it pretty unlikely to get through US departments as
> rapidly as OMAFRA and OMOECC, where Government official seem
> to believe there is global warming.
>
> See few comments below - and thanks for yours.
>
> (snip)
>
> *[RWLC: I think we are a long way from having acceptance
> of a “ software simulator”.*
>
> *I would have guess that most of your MH units
> are “one-off”. They can’t be tested in the field at low
> enough cost?*
>
> In the masonry heater industry we have a precedent from
> Austria. They have a proprietary calculator, that is accepted
> for certifying one-off heaters. The main nuts and bolts behind
> the math is the European EN-13384 chimney calculation
> standard. You basically calculate the friction (pressure)
> losses for "worst case scenario" which is with a half load, in
> the summer, and verify that the appliance will draft properly.
> Damien Lehmann in France has developed an open source version
> and we are trying to extend it to include additional heater
> types than only the Austrian style. Austrian heaters are
> "channeled", where the pressure loss calculation is based on
> the channel cross sections and length. In North America we
> have started building for example, a Russian system that is
> based on buoyancy and has significantly less friction and that
> the Austrian calculator can't handle.
>
> * How much change in “fuel analysis” during a batch burn?
> Hadn’t heard of this. but found several papers related
> toMHA, such as*
>
> http://mha-net.org/docs/temp/2017-10-16%20Pemberton-Pigott%20-%20Decombustion%20Theory.pdf.
>
> *Mt tentative conclusion is that this is un-needed for
> TLUDs, but i am surprised at the assumptions needed. I
> look forward to understanding this and why measurements
> aren’t enough.*
>
> After seeing Crispin's presentation on this at the Stove
> Design Challenge event in 2014 at Brookhaven Lab in NY, a team
> from the University of Buffalo did some work with it on a
> cordwood boiler. They found that with a batch burn of
> standardized briquettes and a constant fuel composition
> assumption "...H2O is underpredicted at early times and
> overpredicted during the charcoal oxidation stage, resulting
> in a mean error of approximately 64%". The good news is that
> the two sort of cancel each other out. I think the error in
> calculating overall efficiency was somewhere in the 3% range.
>
> For our calculator effort, we need an accurate flue mass flow
> rate and therefore need to measure H2O. Therefore, Crispin's
> approach should tie in well with this.
>
>
> *[RWLE: I googled for Testo 330-2 and “inexpensive NDIR
> benches” (on behalf of Andrew’s emphasis on this) and
> tentatively concluded we can’t yet get equipment CO and
> particulates in the range of $100. (NDIR = Non-dispersive
> infra-red)*
>
> Yes, that would be a stretch. A Testo is in the $2500 range.
> There is an interesting NDIR bench on ebay for $26.00:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/NDIR-Infrared-Carbon-Dioxide-CO2-Sensor-Module-MH-Z14A-Serial-Port-0-5000ppm/282697897512?epid=14007377319&hash=item41d21b9628:g:cZ4AAOSwjodZ5eRL
>
> but it only goes to 5000 ppm, likely for HVAC room occupancy
> measurements. In principle, you would only need to shorten the
> chamber in order to get a higher range. At least that is what
> I have seen on some older Horiba benches.
>
> CO is interesting to watch, but we don't care that much
> about it. It is not regulated in North America, and is not
> a health issue except in dense urban areas. When we tested
> the Austrian eco-labelled air system, PM dropped about 50%
> and CO dropped about 80%. We were a lot more excited about
> the PM drop, because this is the number that matters here
> to regulators. Europeans have told us that the United
> States is about 10 years ahead of Europe in air quality
> regulation. Largely due to California, in particular Los
> Angeles. The Europeans are only just now recognizing the
> PM problem in urban areas from diesel and wood burning,
> and addressing this in their regulations.
>
> *[RWLF: Good. Maybe that helps the garage testing of TLUDs
> a bit. If you ever hear of something in the $100 range, I
> believe a lot of people on this list would be willing to add
> PM to what they are already able to do quite cheaply to get
> weight, temperatures, and times for energy efficiency
> computations.*
>
> Before my Testo arrived, I was able to do some useful stuff by
> measuring opacity. $1.00 CdS sensor, light source, ohm-meter:
>
> www.mha-net.org/graphics2/17121701.JPG
> <http://www.mha-net.org/graphics2/17121701.JPG>
>
> It shows you where in your cycle the PM is, but is hard to
> correlate with the "EPA number"
>
> --
>
> Norbert Senf
> Masonry Stove Builders
> 25 Brouse Road, RR 5
> Shawville Québec J0X 2Y0
> 819.647.5092
> www.heatkit.com <http://www.heatkit.com>
>
>
>
>
>
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