[Stoves] TLUD stoves and tests

Ronal W. Larson rongretlarson at comcast.net
Thu Jul 26 13:32:39 MDT 2018


List, Xavier and Kirk

	The main item not being discussed below is the recently approved (with a huge majority by a lot of stove experts - after years of debate) new ISO test procedures.  To me this proves conclusively that the WBT is fine.  Giving cites for inadequacy that are very old is no proof of anything.


> On Jul 26, 2018, at 12:51 PM, <xav.brandao at gmail.com> <xav.brandao at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Dear Kirk,
>  
> “A well designed TLUD type stove will do well, whatever test it is given.”
	RWL1:   Kirk - I have to disagree.  There are tests (especially one used in China) that treat char as waste - and so don't measure the produced char.  I guarantee that TLUDs will look bad on those tests.

> Will it for sure? I have not tested nor seen tests of TLUD stoves myself, nor read that much about TLUD testing.
	[RWL2:  I gave a cite yesterday to a paper by Jetter et al, that is on testing.  Clearly the best performing stoves there were TLUDs and fan-powered (also TLUD principles).  To repeat - see
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.648.7709&rep=rep1&type=pdf <http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.648.7709&rep=rep1&type=pdf>
>  
> “A lesser performing type stove will accordingly do less well, whatever test it is given.”
> No.
> It might perform great sometimes with the WBT. Then terrible. Then great. Then quite ok.
> Then it might perform great or terrible in the field.
> There is too much variability and unreliability.
	[RWL3:   Can you give cites on these three sentences?  Maybe from some group that treats char as waste?
> Have you read Fabio Riva and Francesco Lombardi papers?
	[RWL4:   I have - and I recall no statements about TLUDs or char-making.  They want to do more testing to get an accuracy that is un-needed and wasteful of time and money.

	I'll stop here - to give time on the above.

Ron
>  
> “Is there a lab on the west coast of the USA where I/we can have cooking vessels tested with this test?  This would be a lab with quality equipment and well trained personal, not back yard equipment.”
> I don’t know.
> The only labs I know of which perform the CSI are the YDD lab (Yayasan Dian Desa), and the CAU (China Agricultural University) lab.
> But any lab can perform it: the Burn Design Lab or the Aprovecho could very well do it. I think it is worth asking them.
>  
> OK, you chose to say “disliked and liked tests”. It is up to you. I choose to say “reliable and unreliable”, and this is not judgmental. It is backed with scientific evidence, it is the conclusion of a dozen studies reviewing the protocols.
> Likewise “smoking is unhealthy” is not judgmental. It is objective and based on scientific data.
> Have you read the studies I shared many times?
> If you didn’t, here they are:
>  
> Lombardi F., Riva F., Bonamini G., Barbieri J., Colombo E., Laboratory protocols for testing of Improved Cooking Stoves (ICSs): A review of state-of-the-art and further developments, 06/02/2017
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096195341730065X <http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096195341730065X>
>  
> Lombardi F., Riva F., Colombo E., Guidelines for reporting and analysing laboratory test results for biomass cooking stoves, 01/2017
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/312849490_Guidelines_for_reporting_and_analysing_laboratory_test_results_for_biomass_cooking_stoves <https://www.researchgate.net/publication/312849490_Guidelines_for_reporting_and_analysing_laboratory_test_results_for_biomass_cooking_stoves>
>  
> Riva F., Lombardi F., Pavarini C., Colombo E., Fuzzy interval propagation of uncertainties in experimental analysis for improved and traditional three–stone fire cookstoves, 09/07/2016
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308898807_Fuzzy_interval_propagation_of_uncertainties_in_experimental_analysis_for_improved_and_traditional_three_-_Stone_fire_cookstoves <https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308898807_Fuzzy_interval_propagation_of_uncertainties_in_experimental_analysis_for_improved_and_traditional_three_-_Stone_fire_cookstoves>
>  
> 
> Bailis R., Berrueta V., Chengappa C., Dutta K., Edwards R., Masera O., Performance testing for monitoring improved biomass stove interventions: experiences of the Household Energy and Health Project. Energy Sustainable Dev 2007;11:57–70., 2007 
> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.461.783&rep=rep1&type=pdf <http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.461.783&rep=rep1&type=pdf>
>  
> Pendelton Taylor R., The shortcomings of the U.S. protocol, 2009
> http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1534&context=etd <http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1534&context=etd>
>  
> L’Orange C., DeFoort M., Willson B., Influence of testing parameters on biomass stove performance and development of an improved testing protocol, 2009
> https://envirofit.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2012-influence-of-testing-parameters.pdf <https://envirofit.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2012-influence-of-testing-parameters.pdf>
>  
> Gorrity M., Trujillo G., Quality assurance for cookstoves testing centers: calculation of expanded uncertainty for WBT, 2013
> http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/library/Stove%20Testing/Testing%20Protocols/American%20WBT,%20CCT,%20KPT/2014%20March%20WBT%204.2.x%20Uncertainty,%20Gorrity,%20M.pdf <http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/library/Stove%20Testing/Testing%20Protocols/American%20WBT,%20CCT,%20KPT/2014%20March%20WBT%204.2.x%20Uncertainty,%20Gorrity,%20M.pdf>
>  
> Ding H., Liu J., Zhang Y., Dong R., Pang C., Key factors of thermal efficiency test protocols, 2013
> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1000.3936&rep=rep1&type=pdf <http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1000.3936&rep=rep1&type=pdf>
>  
> Zhang Y., Pemberton-Pigott C., Zhang Z., Ding H., Zhou Y., Dong R., Key differences of performance test protocols for household biomass cookstoves. Twenty-Second Domestic Use of Energy, IEEE 2014:1–11., 2014
> http://energyuse.org.za/document-archive/ <http://energyuse.org.za/document-archive/>
> To access the file, select DUE [Domestic Use of energy COnference]. Select DUE 2014. Select PROCEEDINGS. Select paper by Zhang etal (PDFs arranged alphabetically).
> 
>  
> Wang Y., Sohn MD., How many replicate tests are needed to test cookstove performance and emissions? — Three is not always adequate., 2014
> http://gadgillab.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/D-13-00075-Wang-et-al._final.pdf <http://gadgillab.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/D-13-00075-Wang-et-al._final.pdf>
>  
> Lloyd P., Annegarn H., Pemberton-Pigott C., Towards a standard for clean solid-fuelled cookstoves, 2015
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274706950_Towards_a_standard_for_clean_solid-fuelled_cookstoves <https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274706950_Towards_a_standard_for_clean_solid-fuelled_cookstoves>
>  
> Zhang Z., Zhang Y., Zhou Y., Riaz A., Pemberton-Pigott C., Annegarn H., Dong R., Systematic and conceptual errors in standards and protocols for thermal performance of biomass stoves, 2016
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309689616_Systematic_and_conceptual_errors_in_standards_and_protocols_for_thermal_performance_of_biomass_stoves <https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309689616_Systematic_and_conceptual_errors_in_standards_and_protocols_for_thermal_performance_of_biomass_stoves>
>  
> One might have the feeling there is a “debate” about the WBT, or that we are “arguing”.
>  
> In fact, the conversation about the WBT boils down to that:
> Usually Crispin or myself point at the issues with the WBT, backed with studies.
> Someone says he thinks the WBT is ok
> We ask if he read the studies
> He didn’t
> We point at the studies, documenting the issues with the WBT
> Repeat
>  
> “Very little progress has been made.  I assume that you are not saying that we should give up. “
> Of course not. We should try again, smarter.
>  
> Best,
> 
> Xavier
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