[Stoves] Down with Fantasy-draft stoves
Ronal W. Larson
rongretlarson at comcast.net
Mon Mar 26 22:58:13 CDT 2018
Paul and List:
I just lost 3-4 hours of work defending the concept of TLODs and Nat’s work. I had at least 6 websites, something on this list from about 2010 on the Everything Nice stove (partly from me), a patent issued to Nat, and comments on many of your statements below. I am too discouraged to redo it tonight.
The main messages were two:
a. Not enough attention is being placed on hole placements
b. The word “Venturi” is key.
Ron
> On Mar 24, 2018, at 9:48 PM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
>
> Ron,
>
> I disagree with your comments.
>
> You always speak of Nat Mulcahy's work as if it is still going on. I have not heard of anyone having contact wity him or having his stoves since 2010. If Nat makes comments, he will certainly be heard at this Stoves Listserv.
>
> Second, note that Nat has used the name Lucia stove for BOTH his natural draft units (Everything Nice, claimed to NOT be a TLUD but disputed in the past few days by McLaughlin, English, Harris, others including me) and his forced air units that are excellent fan-jet (high turbulence) stoves that do not make char. I was at that ETHOS meeting, spoke with Nat, and saw his stoves in operation. They are not on the market.
>
> It is a past topic unless someone (Nat?) has fresh info.
>
> Is anyone able to find Heath Putnam? I would love to discuss his experiments with him.
>
> Paul
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>
> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website: www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com/>
> On 3/24/2018 6:14 PM, Ronal W. Larson wrote:
>> Paul and list:
>>
>> I don’t think there is any conflict that traditional TLUDs do not experience down draft. But the Putnam experiments have been trying to explore what Nat Mulcahy has patented and been selling for about a decade. (I met Nat at the 2008 Biochar conference in Newcastle UK.)
>>
>> This week’s list messages is the only negative dialog I remember since the 2009 ETHOS meeting where Nat explained his work. I wasn’t there, and I know some didn’t believe it going in, but I thought he had convinced everyone. Can we hear from others who were there? I am questioning the word “consensus” below.
>>
>> I doubt that any of those with negative reactions to Nat’s work have had a chance to play with the Lucia’s. I have - for at least 3-4 hours in his lab in Italy - on maybe 3 different models both powered and natural draft. Anyone who has been saying that the Lucia is a TLUD had that experience?
>>
>> I assert that Nat has not been fooling people, so here is a guarantee for a beer to anyone who can prove via a test that either the Lucia or the new work is simply another TLUD. I assert it is should be easy with simple tests to prove that Nat IS exploiting the Bernoulli principal. My Googling has shown there are plenty of practical applications of one airflow to create a low pressure area in another area.
>>
>> I’ll keep working on this. I need help with the mathematics of the Bernoulli equation for some specific stove geometry. I’m looking for an ME who has been teaching the Bernoulli equation in the classroom (and better a lab).
>>
>> I have never seen a plot of pressure in the TLUD design that made sense. Anyone able to send me one that is backed up by an experiment? Temperature, charcoal amounts, pyrolysis gases, and power levels are easy. Not looking for these. Pressure differences are tiny. There might be some ways to measure velocities and densities, but haven’t seen those either. All these needed for the Bernoulli equation.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Mar 24, 2018, at 4:18 PM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Alex and all,
>>>
>>> Thank you all for your comments. There was some discussion about this "downdraft in updraft" a few years ago, with a consensus of no downdraft occuring. It is only because of the Heath Putnam videos that the topic has returned.
>>>
>>> The discussion these last few days has been interesting. Some comments / hypotheses have been given. Some suggestions of how additonal tests could be run have been made. But nobody has replicated the Putnam experiments or tried some new test. I hope that this will eventually be done, recorded on video, and posted for all of us to see.
>>>
>>> Until then, that little bit of doubt still lingers. Something scientific has not yet been fully tested. This IS the frontier of cookstove technology.
>>>
>>> This topic supports my contention that there is still much to learn about TLUD technology and micro-gasification in general. TLUD stoves and micro-gasifiers will contnue to get better as the world eventually recognizes that they are burning gases (made inside the devices), not directly burning solid fuels. And they are not like the old "stick burners" that keep hanging around and are promoted to impoverished people although stick burners and charcoal burners will never resolve the world's cookstove problems.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>
>>> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>>> Website: www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com/>
>>> On 3/24/2018 12:11 PM, alex english wrote:
>>>> Paul,
>>>> Lacking anything like data backed proof of down-drafting in these little stoves without fans. I say no way.
>>>>
>>>> Buoyancy in chimneys and stoves is often visualized as something like gasses, being sucked up. It is really gasses being pushed up by heavier gasses being sucked down by by gravity more like water seeking it own level and forcing air above it. Inside a top lit stove of pellets the air in the bottom is cold and heavy. It is pushed up to replace the lighter hot gasses above. Edge of container effects may cause small eddies. If it is cooler than the hot middle then a bit of down movement but not much. As the container heats up it may be hotter than the cool pellets in the middle. Then there would be a little movement up near the edge. The end result in a TLUD is a fire or front (MPF) that in fact seeks its own level.
>>>>
>>>> I have operated Paul brand TLUD in a painted cylinder filled with pellets so slowly that the pellets at the edge were torrified and the rest were charred and the paint was still good. I have operated pellets at 18 inches in diameter , 40 inches deep for up to a continuous burn of 12 hours. I have also operated continuous down drafters for days but needed a hot 10 feet of chimney to over come buoyancy in a two inch diameter burner.
>>>>
>>>> There's no pressure gradient to drive this fantasy in the real world.
>>>>
>>>> Ah there's Hugh now....driving his own spike.
>>>>
>>>> Done
>>>>
>>>> Alex
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
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>>
>
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