[Stoves] Mis-information

Wed Mar 28 10:16:16 CDT 2018

Gordon,

Yes, that is the concept being discussed.  The explanaiton by World 
Stove is in question.   The Heath Putnam videos are more realistic than 
drawings, and his lower holes are at the bottom, not at the sise.   I 
have suggested the impact lower pressure caused by only one supply of 
both primary and secondary air (comingled air supply).

Paul

Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
Skype:   paultlud    Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website:  www.drtlud.com

On 3/28/2018 9:51 AM, Gordon West wrote:
> Is this the downdraft stove concept being discussed? (From the World 
> Stove website)
>
> stove-img10_03
> In this depiction, I do not understand how the feedstock that is below 
> the “gas” holes would ever pyrolyze, whether updraft of downdraft, 
> since no air would be passing through it.
>
> Gordon
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Mar 21, 2018, at 10:05 PM, Ronal W. Larson 
>> <rongretlarson at comcast.net <mailto:rongretlarson at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Paul, list, and cc  (this also responding to Kirk Harris)
>>
>> I should have added the names:  Nat Mulcahey,  Lucia, and World 
>> Stove.  Nat’s stove looks identical to a TLUD, but clearly operates 
>> with hot N2 and CO2 (no oxygen) traveling downward through the fuel 
>> bed.  Well discussed I think at the 2009 ETHOS conference and 
>> elsewhere. Nat says that it is the lack of red glowing embers near 
>> the top that shows there is downdraft.
>>
>> The low pressure at the bottom is caused by Bernoulli-Venturi 
>> principles in the stove design that Nat has patented (and talks 
>> about).   I have periodically tried to find equations to understand 
>> this effect, but never had a need to get deeply into it.  I know that 
>> Nat understands those equations perfectly (I visited Nat’s facilities 
>> in Italy, operated with and without a fan, and am sure he does NOT 
>> operate a TLUD).   Amazing to me that this effect can cause such a 
>> downdraft.  Totally non-intuitive.
>>
>> I’ll look up an exact cite, but found one video that says the 
>> experimenter (not Nat) had to increase the height location of the 
>> secondary air inlets to maximize the “vacuum” effect (lowered 
>> pressure below the fuel).  That geometry is not common in TLUDs.  It 
>> is also very different from Nat’s apparatus (which has "complicated” 
>> aluminum castings), which he “tunes” for different fuels).
>>
>> It is interesting to ponder whether Nat’s patent would cover this 
>> quite different (and simpler) geometry.  Maybe it has been done by 
>> others, but Nat can control the power level, and the simple 
>> (Facebook) tests I saw were not (but probably could).   Nat has other 
>> stove features that possibly would not have him worry about this 
>> apparently similar “)TLODD” behavior   (Although “ODD" has meaning, 
>> it probably implies a curiosity aspect that is not deserved.  I want 
>> to take that name back.)
>>
>> Why would anyone want to further explore this “downdraft” effect? 
>>  Besides Nat getting  a very clean flame, that I now presume could 
>> also be achieved with tin cans with the new secondary air hole 
>> placement,  I’m guessing that this system could be optimized to give 
>> a pre-mixed flame.   That would give shorter flames.  Possibly can 
>> have shorter stoves that can be filled closer to the top.
>>
>> Measuring the temperature below the fuel bed will tell a lot.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Mar 21, 2018, at 10:59 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu 
>>> <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Ron and all,
>>>
>>> I will send a full response very soon.   Believe me, the explaation 
>>> does not justify a new category of micro-gasifier technology, but is 
>>> only TLUD done poorly.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>
>>> Skype:   paultlud    Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>>> Website:  www.drtlud.com
>>>
>>> On 3/21/2018 9:25 AM, Ronal W. Larson wrote:
>>>> Paul and ccs
>>>>
>>>> I believe the downward movement description is OK.  Not a TLUD, of 
>>>> course, despite its looks.
>>>> I’m at a conference and will say more later.
>>>>
>>>> I know you don’t like the term TLOD, where “O” stands for opposite. 
>>>>  How about TLODD (for Top Lit Opposite Down Draft) - since the 
>>>> issue now is “down”?
>>>>
>>>> Ron
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 18, 2018, at 3:32 PM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Stovers,
>>>>>
>>>>> I stumbled onto this video by accident.   He is instructing 
>>>>> (64,000 views) that the air in the fuel chamber of a woodgas stove 
>>>>> (same drawings as for a TLUD) are moving DOWNWARD.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FepZPaxgB3o
>>>>>
>>>>> Totally bogus.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would not even mention it to the Stoves Listserv except to 
>>>>> express my disgust and to point how what is creeping into 
>>>>> information flows about stoves.
>>>>>
>>>>> Might be a nice challenge for students to try to PROVE the 
>>>>> direction of the air flows in TLUD stoves.   Such as an increase 
>>>>> in temperature in the bottom few cm of the fuel if the hot gases 
>>>>> were pulled downward.    Of detecting combustible gases in the gap 
>>>>> between the fuel cylinder and the outer cylinder.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>>>> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
>>>>> Skype:   paultlud    Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>>>>> Website:  www.drtlud.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
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