[Stoves] CCA and RE: making charcoal to help control climate change
Anderson, Paul
psanders at ilstu.edu
Thu Aug 8 21:23:38 CDT 2019
Hi,
I am sending this reply to the Stoves Listserv because a larger audience is appropriate. (and I changed to the correct address for Elisa Derby.)
It is typical that there is extremely little discussion about or by the CCA on the Stoves Listserv. It has been that way a long long time.
Dean asks “Who is going to the CCA Forum in Kenya in November?” I looked at the CCA website and did not find info. It is not listed under “Events”. Is this the next installment of the bi-annual large meetings? Will there be announcements coming?
Dean also wrote:
“The updated "Clean Burning Biomass Cook Stoves" will be done this Fall.
New chapters on forced draft, TEG, combustion, heat transfer, project planning, Test Kitchen.”
Is there any more info about that? Who is doing it? Are they reaching out to practitioners who are active about the chapters (new ones and continuing ones)?
It would be good to have more info and more discussion.
Paul
Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP
Email: psanders at ilstu.edu<mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu> Skype: paultlud
Phone: Office: 309-452-7072 Mobile: 309-531-4434
Website: www.drtlud.com<http://www.drtlud.com>
From: Dean Still <deankstill at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 8, 2019 5:02 PM
To: Julien Winter <winter.julien at gmail.com>
Cc: Harris, Kirk <gkharris316 at comcast.net>; Vi Rapp <vhrapp at lbl.gov>; Ronal W. Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net>; Anderson, Paul <psanders at ilstu.edu>; Norman Baker <ntbakerphd at gmail.com>; Larry Winiarski <larryw at gotsky.com>; Jock Gill <jg45 at icloud.com>; Derby, Elisa <ederby at winrock.org>
Subject: Re: making charcoal to help control climate change
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Hi Julien,
We measure all of the parameters you listed when R&D testing to evolve better combustion and heat transfer efficiency.
Then we move to the Controlled Cooking Test, under the hood in the country of interest, to have local cooks design the cooking function in the new stove using local fuels, pots, foods, etc.
That CCT process usually takes about 100 tests.
Usually takes about 100 water boiling tests when done sequentially to make significant progress in the lab. 2 tests per day= two months?
Anyone going to Nairobi for the CCA Forum?
The updated "Clean Burning Biomass Cook Stoves" will be done this Fall.
New chapters on forced draft, TEG, combustion, heat transfer, project planning, Test Kitchen.
All Best,
Dean
On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 2:22 PM Julien Winter <winter.julien at gmail.com<mailto:winter.julien at gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi Folks;
I agree with Dean. There is a lot of research yet to be done on TLUDs. There are several theoretical approaches and geometries possible with natural draft TLUD burner design. All this needs systematic testing of hypotheses by modifying one variable and holding many other variables constant. When more that one hypothesis is tested (e.g., concentrator diameter, riser height and specific gasification rate) then we need to test various combinations (a factorial design) … replicated.
Also into this mix are different types of fuel and fuel water content.
We need a big grant (that we don't spend on mass spectrometers and lasers) to run 1000s tests measuring basic parameters such as ficial velocity of primary air. excess air, CO, PM in the exhaust, and the super
In the meantime, we do what we can by trial and error on an ad hoc basis. The good thing about the informal burner trials is that they have generated hypotheses to be tested more rigorously.
Cheers,
Julien
On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 4:46 PM Dean Still <deankstill at gmail.com<mailto:deankstill at gmail.com>> wrote:
Dear Kirk,
I would wait until the bugs are worked out?
The stove community has hurt itself a lot by promoting stoves that do not work well yet.
I am laughed at by potential funders who have read the newspapers and blogs.
We are digging ourselves out of a hole that the stove community dug for itself.
Much better to downplay performance, never exaggerate.
All Best,
Dean
On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harris, Kirk <gkharris316 at comcast.net<mailto:gkharris316 at comcast.net>> wrote:
Dean,
Thank you for your considered response. I appreciate your expert input. Your concerns are an important part of what I was hoping could be brought into the public discussion on Science Friday. Dr. Anderson added some important input as well. Perhaps Julien, you would like to present your work on public radio, so the world can benefit from the knowledge of your efforts. I am not saying this system is perfect and is what we need to save the world (though it could help if we can stimulate politicians to be supportive). What I am asking is to bring this into the public discussion, instead of leaving it with a privileged few.
Kirk H.
On 8/8/2019 12:02 AM, Dean Still wrote:
Hi Kirk,
Remember that black smoke is about 700 times worse for climate change than CO2 by weight.
1.) The energy in the wood really has to be used for a good purpose so it's not wasted and 2.) there needs to be no smoke or CO. And 3.the wood has to be sustainably harvested to be carbon neutral.
So far, I haven't seen anyone meet these three criteria so when asked I can't say that biochar is currently a supportable process.
Maybe a good idea but like other biomass schemes, such as cooking, needs a lot more R&D.
All Best,
Dean
On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 1:52 PM Harris, Kirk <gkharris316 at comcast.net<mailto:gkharris316 at comcast.net>> wrote:
All,
For the last few months I have been trying to get a public radio
program, Science Friday, which frequently has programs on climate change
to bring into the discussion biomass power plants, especially plants
that remove CO2 from the atmosphere by producing char. The program
always includes solar, wind, and mechanical CO2 extraction from the
atmosphere, but never includes the biomass options. I am hoping to get
the biomass options with their advantages, into the public discussion,
and this seems to me to be a good place to start. Could you contact the
program and ask them to include the biomass options in their
discussions. I understand this is not about TLUD cook stoves, but it is
a related topic. Perhaps TLUD principles can be scaled up to work for a
large scale power plant.
Go to "Science Friday" and scroll to the bottom of the home page and
click on "contact"
Attached is my last communication with the Science Friday people.
I have continued to experiment with stove concepts, with the goal of
burning clean at high power levels in the TLUD-ND, enhancing the older
designs and trying some new variations. I am focusing on increased
surface contact, and maximizing the use of the pressure difference,
between the air and wood gas.
Kirk H.
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Dean Still
Executive Director
Aprovecho Research Center
PO Box 1175
76132 Blue Mountain School Road
Cottage Grove, OR 97424
(541) 767-0287
www.aprovecho.org<http://www.aprovecho.org>
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Dean Still
Executive Director
Aprovecho Research Center
PO Box 1175
76132 Blue Mountain School Road
Cottage Grove, OR 97424
(541) 767-0287
www.aprovecho.org<http://www.aprovecho.org>
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Julien Winter
Cobourg, ON, CANADA
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Dean Still
Executive Director
Aprovecho Research Center
PO Box 1175
76132 Blue Mountain School Road
Cottage Grove, OR 97424
(541) 767-0287
www.aprovecho.org<http://www.aprovecho.org>
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