[Stoves] [biochar] Methane from char-makers

Sat Feb 23 12:41:17 CST 2019

Kevin,

I would agree with you except that at least for a while we need inputs from many people, at least about their perception of the problem.   In that regard, your message is highly appropriate to express your concerns that methane "is probably not a problem."

If we have 5 to 10 others sending comments about whether to discuss on-list or off-list, I will gladly follow the suggestions (including consideration of yours).

All messages about this should continue with the word "Methane" in the subject line so that it can be read or avoided according to the reader's preferences.

Paul

Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP
Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu<mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>       Skype:   paultlud
Phone:  Office: 309-452-7072    Mobile: 309-531-4434
Website:   www.drtlud.com<http://www.drtlud.com>

From: biochar at yahoogroups.com <biochar at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2019 7:29 PM
To: biochar at yahoogroups.com; 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves' <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Cc: ''Hans-Peter Schmidt' - Switzerland - Nepal' <schmidt at ithaka-institut.org>
Subject: RE: [biochar] Methane from char-makers

Hi Paul

Would it be possible that you and Hans-Peter did a bit of work off-line, and then reported back to the List, giving a perspective on the nature and extent of the "Methane Problem", and the circumstances where it might be an actual concern on stove and chart systems?

My "off-the-cuff", "simple-wild-ass-guess" is that methane is not a problem if there is no smoke.

No point in consuming the List with a Subject that probably is a non-problem

Best wishes,

Kevin

From: biochar at yahoogroups.com<mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com> [mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com]
Sent: February 22, 2019 10:37 AM
To: biochar at yahoogroups.com<mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com>; 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves' <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org<mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
Cc: 'Hans-Peter Schmidt' - Switzerland - Nepal <schmidt at ithaka-institut.org<mailto:schmidt at ithaka-institut.org>>
Subject: RE: [biochar] Methane from char-makers

Kevin,

The topic of methane only arose because Hans-Peter presented info about methane from Kon Tiki devices, and then the topic grew from there.

1.  Stove-size TLUDs:   no problem with methane had been detected, and current actions will continue unless someone who deals with stoves actually says that methane from cookstoves (of any type) is an emissions issue to be considered.

2.  Char-makers such as Kon Tiki / trench for biochar AND CLIMATE MITIGATION are getting large enough that methane could be a problem that prevents or negates the value of sequestration.   THIS needs further discussion by the biochar folks.

3.  All big efforts such as Biogreen and ROI Carbonator 500 could be facing a challenge to their claims of climate benefits if methane is a true and serious problem.   Should be considered further.

Paul

Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP
Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu<mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>       Skype:   paultlud
Phone:  Office: 309-452-7072    Mobile: 309-531-4434
Website:   www.drtlud.com<http://www.drtlud.com>

From: biochar at yahoogroups.com<mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com> <biochar at yahoogroups.com<mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com>>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2019 5:21 AM
To: biochar at yahoogroups.com<mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com>; 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves' <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org<mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
Subject: RE: [biochar] Methane from char-makers

Hi Paul

"Methane from Char-Makers" is a rather broad Subject Line. One can make char with many systems and techniques, and one can expect to produce various quantities of methane and char in various qualities. Clearly, a gasifier producing "Engine Grade Gas" and Char" could have Char/Methane output different from a TLUD, an externally heated retort, a Kontiki, a Three Stone Fire, etc.

In your case, where your major interest is in TLUD systems, it would appear that one way to proceed would be as follows:
1: Do "methane analysis" on TLUD flue gas, under various operating conditions, to determine how much, if any, CH4 is produced, and if any is produced, under what operating conditions is it produced.

2: Considering the markets into which you are selling various TLUD systems, is there a problem or opportunity associated with the presence or absence of CH4 in TLUD exit gases?

If there are no methane related problems or opportunities associated with your products and the markets into which you sell them, then you need have little to no concern for methane.

Best wishes,

Kevin

From: biochar at yahoogroups.com<mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com> [mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com]
Sent: February 22, 2019 1:06 AM
To: biochar at yahoogroups.com<mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com>; Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org<mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
Subject: RE: [biochar] Methane from char-makers

Dear all,

I place comments below in Geoff's message (shortened) and then I paste the key first paragraph of a message from Frank Shields.  Both add to our information and also raise some questions relating to methane.

See below.

Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP
Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu<mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>       Skype:   paultlud
Phone:  Office: 309-452-7072    Mobile: 309-531-4434
Website:   www.drtlud.com<http://www.drtlud.com>

From: biochar at yahoogroups.com<mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com> <biochar at yahoogroups.com<mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com>>
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2019 9:19 PM
To: biochar at yahoogroups.com<mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [biochar] Methane from char-makers

  [PSA>>] Geoff wrote:

Thanks for that table Valentine, anyone who claims variance from that should be able to prove it or at least cite studies so indicating.
Q/1, why are stoves not tested for methane? - well, the dominant information in the Biochar world is that the passing of exhaust smoke through a glowing charcoal bed crazy for oxygen causes all the aromatic etc oils to burn, the carbon dioxide to burn, the water to split into oxygen and hydrogen and burn, - why would methane be excepted?
[PSA>>] There is some disagreement here.   SOME units pass the exhaust gas through glowing hot charcoal (such as downdraft gasifiers), But TLUDs pass it through residual charcoal, and flame-cap (Kon Tiki) do not pass it through any charcoal.
You might as well ask why are stoves not tested for radiation, Bubonic plague or terrroism messages..
Q/3, answered by 1, except if far too much water is added, in which case the stove would probably self extinguish.
[PSA>>] I think that questions 1 and 3 still need further answers.

1.  Why are the stove tests not including methane emissions results?  (be sure Jim Jetter sees this.)

2.  HPS says methane is 100 times worse than CO2, but others say 25 times worse.   Which is it?[PSA>>]  Already answered by Hans-Peter

3.  Major comment by HPS:  "methane molecules get wrapped by arising water vapor which prevent its combustion."   Correct or not?   Can it be explained more fully?   And conclusion would be to use very dry fuel, right?  (meaning changing our stoves?)

Below is Frank Shield's comment:
Hi Paul,
There is equipment to measure methane without a lot of cost. I played around with them when at the Soil Control Lab. There may be interference from other gasses (false positives) so that will need be checked. I do not have that equipment and I am sure they at the lab would not know where it is. Also; I found that biochar will take up methane like it does butane. I tested that using pure methane but I no longer have my results. Likely in a combustion atmosphere there will be other gases competing with the methane and may dirty the char.

PSA:  I can appreciate the difficulties of getting good measurements.   But note that the flame-cap Kon Tiki does not have the gases (including methane) passing through charcoal.

I think the questions #1 and #3 could still have further responses.

Paul

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