[Stoves] [biochar] Methane from char-makers

Sat Feb 23 13:48:27 CST 2019

Paul,
This reminded me of a graph from Tom Reed's Encyclopedia of Biomass Thermal
Conversion
[image: image.png]
It includes methane down in the corner, suggesting that CO is not a
surrogate for CH4.
This does not address the actual emissions from funky flame cap char makers.
Alex

On Sat, Feb 23, 2019 at 1:43 PM Anderson, Paul <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:

> Kevin,
>
>
>
> I would agree with you except that at least for a while we need inputs
> from many people, at least about their perception of the problem.   In that
> regard, your message is highly appropriate to express your concerns that
> methane “is probably not a problem.”
>
>
>
> If we have 5 to 10 others sending comments about whether to discuss
> on-list or off-list, I will gladly follow the suggestions (including
> consideration of yours).
>
>
>
> All messages about this should continue with the word “Methane” in the
> subject line so that it can be read or avoided according to the reader’s
> preferences.
>
>
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>
> Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP
>
> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu       Skype:   paultlud
>
> Phone:  Office: 309-452-7072    Mobile: 309-531-4434
>
> Website:   www.drtlud.com
>
>
>
> *From:* biochar at yahoogroups.com <biochar at yahoogroups.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, February 22, 2019 7:29 PM
> *To:* biochar at yahoogroups.com; 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves' <
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Cc:* ''Hans-Peter Schmidt' - Switzerland - Nepal' <
> schmidt at ithaka-institut.org>
> *Subject:* RE: [biochar] Methane from char-makers
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Paul
>
>
>
> Would it be possible that you and Hans-Peter did a bit of work off-line,
> and then reported back to the List, giving a perspective on the nature and
> extent of the “Methane Problem”, and the circumstances where it might be an
> actual concern on stove and chart systems?
>
>
>
> My “off-the-cuff”, “simple-wild-ass-guess” is that methane is not a
> problem if there is no smoke.
>
>
>
> No point in consuming the List with a Subject that probably is a
> non-problem
>
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
>
>
> Kevin
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* biochar at yahoogroups.com [mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com
> <biochar at yahoogroups.com>]
> *Sent:* February 22, 2019 10:37 AM
> *To:* biochar at yahoogroups.com; 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves' <
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Cc:* 'Hans-Peter Schmidt' - Switzerland - Nepal <
> schmidt at ithaka-institut.org>
> *Subject:* RE: [biochar] Methane from char-makers
>
>
>
>
>
> Kevin,
>
>
>
> The topic of methane only arose because Hans-Peter presented info about
> methane from Kon Tiki devices, and then the topic grew from there.
>
>
>
> 1.  Stove-size TLUDs:   no problem with methane had been detected, and
> current actions will continue unless someone who deals with stoves actually
> says that methane from cookstoves (of any type) is an emissions issue to be
> considered.
>
>
>
> 2.  Char-makers such as Kon Tiki / trench for biochar AND CLIMATE
> MITIGATION are getting large enough that methane could be a problem that
> prevents or negates the value of sequestration.   THIS needs further
> discussion by the biochar folks.
>
>
>
> 3.  All big efforts such as Biogreen and ROI Carbonator 500 could be
> facing a challenge to their claims of climate benefits if methane is a true
> and serious problem.   Should be considered further.
>
>
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>
> Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP
>
> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu       Skype:   paultlud
>
> Phone:  Office: 309-452-7072    Mobile: 309-531-4434
>
> Website:   www.drtlud.com
>
>
>
> *From:* biochar at yahoogroups.com <biochar at yahoogroups.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, February 22, 2019 5:21 AM
> *To:* biochar at yahoogroups.com; 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves' <
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Subject:* RE: [biochar] Methane from char-makers
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Paul
>
>
>
> “Methane from Char-Makers” is a rather broad Subject Line. One can make
> char with many systems and techniques, and one can expect to produce
> various quantities of methane and char in various qualities. Clearly, a
> gasifier producing “Engine Grade Gas” and Char” could have Char/Methane
> output different from a TLUD, an externally heated retort, a Kontiki, a
> Three Stone Fire, etc.
>
>
>
> In your case, where your major interest is in TLUD systems, it would
> appear that one way to proceed would be as follows:
>
> 1: Do “methane analysis” on TLUD flue gas, under various operating
> conditions, to determine how much, if any, CH4 is produced, and if any is
> produced, under what operating conditions is it produced.
>
>
>
> 2: Considering the markets into which you are selling various TLUD
> systems, is there a problem or opportunity associated with the presence or
> absence of CH4 in TLUD exit gases?
>
>
>
> If there are no methane related problems or opportunities associated with
> your products and the markets into which you sell them, then you need have
> little to no concern for methane.
>
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
>
>
> Kevin
>
>
>
> *From:* biochar at yahoogroups.com [mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com
> <biochar at yahoogroups.com>]
> *Sent:* February 22, 2019 1:06 AM
> *To:* biochar at yahoogroups.com; Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Subject:* RE: [biochar] Methane from char-makers
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear all,
>
>
>
> I place comments below in Geoff’s message (shortened) and then I paste the
> key first paragraph of a message from Frank Shields.  Both add to our
> information and also raise some questions relating to methane.
>
>
>
> See below.
>
>
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>
> Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP
>
> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu       Skype:   paultlud
>
> Phone:  Office: 309-452-7072    Mobile: 309-531-4434
>
> Website:   www.drtlud.com
>
>
>
> *From:* biochar at yahoogroups.com <biochar at yahoogroups.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 21, 2019 9:19 PM
> *To:* biochar at yahoogroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [biochar] Methane from char-makers
>
>
>
>   *[PSA>>] *Geoff wrote:
>
> Thanks for that table Valentine, anyone who claims variance from that
> should be able to prove it or at least cite studies so indicating.
>
> Q/1, why are stoves not tested for methane? - well, the dominant
> information in the Biochar world is that the passing of exhaust smoke
> through a glowing charcoal bed crazy for oxygen causes all the aromatic etc
> oils to burn, the carbon dioxide to burn, the water to split into oxygen
> and hydrogen and burn, - why would methane be excepted?
>
> *[PSA>>] There is some disagreement here.   SOME units pass the exhaust
> gas through glowing hot charcoal (such as downdraft gasifiers), But TLUDs
> pass it through residual charcoal, and flame-cap (Kon Tiki) do not pass it
> through any charcoal.*
>
> You might as well ask why are stoves not tested for radiation, Bubonic
> plague or terrroism messages..
>
> Q/3, answered by 1, except if far too much water is added, in which case
> the stove would probably self extinguish.
>
> *[PSA>>] I think that questions 1 and 3 still need further answers.*
>
> 1.  Why are the stove tests not including methane emissions results?  (be
> sure Jim Jetter sees this.)
>
> 2.  HPS says methane is 100 times worse than CO2, but others say 25 times
> worse.   Which is it?*[PSA>>] * Already answered by Hans-Peter
>
> 3.  Major comment by HPS:  “methane molecules get wrapped by arising water
> vapor which prevent its combustion.”   Correct or not?   Can it be
> explained more fully?   And conclusion would be to use very dry fuel,
> right?  (meaning changing our stoves?)
>
> *Below is Frank Shield’s comment:*
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> There is equipment to measure methane without a lot of cost. I played
> around with them when at the Soil Control Lab. There may be interference
> from other gasses (false positives) so that will need be checked. I do not
> have that equipment and I am sure they at the lab would not know where it
> is. Also; I found that biochar will take up methane like it does butane. I
> tested that using pure methane but I no longer have my results. Likely in a
> combustion atmosphere there will be other gases competing with the methane
> and may dirty the char.
>
> *PSA:  I can appreciate the difficulties of getting good measurements.
> But note that the flame-cap Kon Tiki does not have the gases (including
> methane) passing through charcoal.  *
>
> *I think the questions #1 and #3 could still have further responses.*
>
> *Paul*
>
>
>
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