[Stoves] [biochar] Methane from char-makers [1 Attachment] Regarding area
d.michael.shafer at gmail.com
d.michael.shafer at gmail.com
Sat Feb 23 21:14:10 CST 2019
At the end of this thread are references to biomass available per ha.
Behind them lie assumptions about land availability. The figure 40 ha
strikes me as very high. The figure I encounter most often is an average
farm size of 2.5 ha. In a standard village of 200-300 people or 40-60
households, this suggests a maximum average cultivated area of not more
than 150 ha. I have never visited a village in which all potential land was
in use nor in which all villagers would participate in a single scheme.
The primary challenge of charring at the periphery is is very small size of
biomass piles available at any location or in any village.
M
On Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 9:40 PM 'Anderson, Paul' psanders at ilstu.edu [biochar]
<biochar at yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> [Attachment(s) <#m_2254998947419920370_m_4012556554620465370_TopText>
> from Anderson, Paul included below]
>
> To all,
>
>
>
> The message from Hans-Peter (HPS) is important about emissions from
> cookstoves AND from char-making devices. The focus is on methane
> emissions. Some comments, based on a rapid look at the 2 articles
> attached, which should be studied by the chemists and emissions specialists
> in our groups.
>
>
>
> 1. Why are the stove tests not including methane emissions results? (be
> sure Jim Jetter sees this.)
>
> 2. HPS says methane is 100 times worse than CO2, but others say 25 times
> worse. Which is it?
>
> 3. Major comment by HPS: “methane molecules get wrapped by arising water
> vapor which prevent its combustion.” Correct or not? Can it be
> explained more fully? And conclusion would be to use very dry fuel,
> right? (meaning changing our stoves?)
>
> 4. I take issue with one comment from table 4 on page 12 (of 16 in Kon
> Tiki article) about disadvantage of TLUD stoves: “Too small to generate
> larger amounts of biochar.” THAT statement is the perspective of a
> SINGLE stove. But when they are used by the thousands, each 1200 TLUD
> stoves produce about one ton of char/biochar EACH DAY. 36,000 in West
> Bengal are producing about 30 tons per day, every day, and have been doing
> so for a few years, and will continue. On a worldwide scale today, that
> much charcoal is probably more than that of all the flame-cap devices
> combined on a daily basis. (That last statemen can be challenge if anyone
> has and data.)
>
>
>
> AND the heat energy is not being wasted when TLUD stoves make
> charcoal. Although the comment in the table overlooks the importance
> of “scale by number” (instead of “scale by size”), I am glad that the TLUD
> stoves were at least mentioned in the report and Table. That is progress
> over being totally ignored.
>
>
>
> I hope that there is substantial discussion about the methane topic.
>
>
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>
> Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP
>
> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud
>
> Phone: Office: 309-452-7072 Mobile: 309-531-4434
>
> Website: www.drtlud.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Schmidt, Hans-Peter <schmidt at ithaka-institut.org>
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 21, 2019 12:29 AM
> *To:* Anderson, Paul <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> *Cc:* Kathleen Draper <draper at ithaka-institut.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Webinar comments by Hans-Peter
>
>
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> Please find attached our paper on low tech pyrolysis emissions. The
> CH4-emissions of TLUD and Kon-Tikis are in the same order. Optimization of
> gas combustion and especially the use of dry feedstock can greatly reduce
> CH4-emissions of both. CH4-emissions of forest wild fires are in the some
> order as optimized Kon-Tiki (see the other attached paper). In field
> burning of harvest residues produce more methane especially when the
> residues are humid as is often the case.
>
> The quantity of emitted methane may not look high but as the Global
> Warming Potential (GWP) of methane is about 100 times that of CO2 in the
> first 20 years, the climate effect of rather low CH4-quantities is already
> considerable.
>
> The problem with methane in all low-tech pyrolysis systems is that methane
> molecules get wrapped by arising water vapor which prevent its combustion.
>
> Be well, Hans-Peter
>
>
>
> *Von: *"Anderson, Paul" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> *Datum: *Donnerstag, 21. Februar 2019 um 04:25
> *An: *"Schmidt, Hans-Peter" <schmidt at ithaka-institut.org>
> *Cc: *"biochar at yahoogroups.com" <biochar at yahoogroups.com>
> *Betreff: *RE: Webinar comments by Hans-Peter
>
>
>
> Hans-Peter,
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> There was no attached graph. Please send.
>
>
>
> I am assuming that you are not subscribed to the Biochar Listserv because
> you do not send replies to that address. So I am forwarding your very
> valuable comments to the Biochar listserv. More comments are below.
>
>
>
>
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>
> Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP
>
> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud
>
> Phone: Office: 309-452-7072 Mobile: 309-531-4434
>
> Website: www.drtlud.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Schmidt, Hans-Peter <schmidt at ithaka-institut.org>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 20, 2019 6:01 PM
> *To:* Anderson, Paul <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: Webinar comments by Hans-Peter
>
>
>
> ... considering that 40 t DM of biomass per ha is what can be expected in
> tropical carbon farming systems, the 1500 t of biomass necessary for one
> standard size E-pyrolysis would need about 40 ha. And even when they do not
> achieve those numbers in productivity in the first years, with 100 – 200 ha
> there would be enough biomass per village. In the tropics, this is more or
> less year around, and the machines can work in continuous processes.
>
>
>
> *[PSA>>] The above is a valuable statement. DM is “dry matter”,
> right? Just knowing about 40 t/ha/year would require 40 ha, and then to
> have extra, allow up to 100 or 200 ha. 100 ha is NOT a very big area; it
> is only 1 sq km.*
>
> *So a safe easy statement is that there can be sufficient biomass to
> produce 1 t of char per day for a year from a area the size of about 1 sq
> km. *
>
> *??? Did I say that correctly? We do not want to be saying things that
> we later need to retract. *
>
> *???? Maybe others who are in the tropical settings (Thailand, Uganda,
> etc.) could comment about this.*
>
>
>
> The US$ 50.000 estimate are based on our experimental E-Pyrolysis data,
> the Pyreg 1 t BC per day systems and experiences with other rotary kiln
> systems.
>
> *[PSA>>] I looked up the Pyreg rotary kiln. Nice video of a small model
> at *
>
> *https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=138&v=Rok9a28IJqQ
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=138&v=Rok9a28IJqQ>*
>
> *???Where is there some info of a larger unit that does 1 t BC per day?
> Or was that a calculated estimate of scale-up? Either way, that is a good
> starting point.*
>
>
>
> It is only an estimate but I do not see any that may increase the material
> and construction cost beyond 50.000 when it enters serial mass production.
> And I also think that 50.000 would be a kind of limit for investors to
> start upscaling.
>
> *[PSA>>] I agree. The $50,000 is not a trivial amount and could be the
> limit for investors. And that is ONLY based on when serial mass
> production is possible. *
>
> *??? Statement: What the world needs is a 1 t of BC per day system that
> costs only $25,000. Is that a good goal or “dream”??? Would that price
> make the production of biochar become a major factor quickly??? I would
> like several people to comment about this. Not just Hans-Peter has
> answers. Comments from all are appreciated.*
>
>
>
>
>
> The methane emissions shown in the graph are based on our Kon-Tiki paper
> (attached). The data are even much worse when the feedstock is not
> completely dry. We are going to publish a paper about it within the next
> months.
>
> *[PSA>>] As said before, please send the graph. I really did not
> associate methane with burning of biomass. I need some instruction.
> Does an open fire (bonfire or campfire or 3-stone fire) put out
> considerable methane emissions? The testing of cookstoves does NOT have a
> methane concern!!!! So is it something about the flame-cap of the
> Kon-Tiki and other open cone kilns that “causes” the methane to be created
> and to escape?? Please help with this question. I am still not
> understanding about methane for such fires.*
>
>
>
> *[PSA>>] Paul*
>
> Best, hp
>
>
>
>
>
> *Von: *"Anderson, Paul" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> *Datum: *Mittwoch, 20. Februar 2019 um 23:57
> *An: *'Hans-Peter Schmidt' - Switzerland - Nepal <
> schmidt at ithaka-institut.org>, "biochar at yahoogroups.com" <
> biochar at yahoogroups.com>
> *Cc: *"Anderson, Paul" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> *Betreff: *Webinar comments by Hans-Peter
>
>
>
> Hans-Peter,
>
>
>
> Just wondering, why do you think that the 1 t/day of char production would
> be a size that would be appropriate for villages? We are discussing
> developing countries. Would this be expected year round, or maybe only
> seasonally for 2 to 5 months (and then idle)?
>
>
>
> And where did the $50,000 price per pyrolyzer installation come from? I
> am content if you say it was just a convenient number, but maybe you have
> some basis for it.
>
>
>
> *********
>
> Another question:
>
> I was surprised by your comment about the (relatively) high emissions of
> methane from the Kon Tiki (and other) flame-cap charmakers. Any links to
> reports about this? Why methane? I would have more easily believe high
> PM or CO.
>
>
>
> Paul
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>
> Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP
>
> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud
>
> Phone: Office: 309-452-7072 Mobile: 309-531-4434
>
> Website: www.drtlud.com
>
>
>
> __._,_.___
>
> Attachment(s) from Anderson, Paul | View attachments on the web
> <https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/biochar/attachments/465317892;_ylc=X3oDMTJyOTdhbms2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDM4MDUyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNzQxODYxMgRzZWMDYXR0YWNobWVudARzbGsDdmlld09uV2ViBHN0aW1lAzE1NTA3NTk5NDE->
>
> 1 of 1 File(s)
> cornelissen-kon-tiki_2016_PLOSOne.pdf
> <https://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/22438052/1884038946/name/cornelissen-kon-tiki_2016_PLOSOne%2Epdf>
> ------------------------------
> Posted by: "Anderson, Paul" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
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