[Stoves] [biochar] Re your dream of developing world production at 1t/day for $25k

Sat Feb 23 21:55:48 CST 2019

Paul,

This is what I have spent the last five years working on. There are
important issues to consider that apply out here
1. Weather cycle. In many (most) places, the cycle is 3 months of rain and
9 months of dry. Farmers farm the rains and for another 2 months.
2. Biomass is dry to char and farmers are free to char it only after the
harvest.
3. A month before the rains, field prep begins.
4. Actual biomass per farmer is typically very small - perhaps 5 tonnes.
5. Roads are very poor and transportation costly.

Collectively, these add up to a situation where biochar production is a
six-month a year, distributed operation that doesn't lend itself to scale
tech.

This said, a farmer and a friend or two can char all the biomass on a farm
in a couple of weeks. Within months, farmers using the lowest tech
available can char every bit of biomass in the village. The char can be
delivered to a broker when villagers go to market.

If a village has 20 active farms of 2.5 ha each, that village can produce a
minimum tonnes of char.  In North Thailand, I can easily find 100 such
villages. Capital equipment and working capital work out at about $10,000
per village, but - with off take!!! - they are profitable in Year 1, pay
back the capital loan in 5 years and pay a nice dividend to both investors
and coop members.

I emphasize the issue of off-take because the issue here is not making the
stuff, it's finding someone who wants to buy it at a price good enough for
the poorest people on earth.

M

On Sun, Feb 24, 2019, 10:14 AM d.michael.shafer at gmail.com <
d.michael.shafer at gmail.com> wrote:

> At the end of this thread are references to biomass available per ha.
> Behind them lie assumptions about land availability. The figure 40 ha
> strikes me as very high. The figure I encounter most often is an average
> farm size of 2.5 ha. In a standard village of 200-300 people or 40-60
> households, this suggests a maximum average cultivated area of not more
> than 150 ha. I have never visited a village in which all potential land was
> in use nor in which all villagers would participate in a single scheme.
>
> The primary challenge of charring at the periphery is is very small size
> of biomass piles available at any location or in any village.
>
> M
>
> On Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 9:40 PM 'Anderson, Paul' psanders at ilstu.edu
> [biochar] <biochar at yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> [Attachment(s)
>> <#m_7639717232830570312_m_2254998947419920370_m_4012556554620465370_TopText>
>> from Anderson, Paul included below]
>>
>> To all,
>>
>>
>>
>> The message from Hans-Peter (HPS) is important about emissions from
>> cookstoves AND from char-making devices.   The focus is on methane
>> emissions.   Some comments, based on a rapid look at the 2 articles
>> attached, which should be studied by the chemists and emissions specialists
>> in our groups.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.  Why are the stove tests not including methane emissions results?  (be
>> sure Jim Jetter sees this.)
>>
>> 2.  HPS says methane is 100 times worse than CO2, but others say 25 times
>> worse.   Which is it?
>>
>> 3.  Major comment by HPS:  “methane molecules get wrapped by arising
>> water vapor which prevent its combustion.”   Correct or not?   Can it be
>> explained more fully?   And conclusion would be to use very dry fuel,
>> right?  (meaning changing our stoves?)
>>
>> 4.   I take issue with one comment from table 4 on page 12 (of 16 in Kon
>> Tiki article) about disadvantage of TLUD stoves:  “Too small to generate
>> larger amounts of biochar.”     THAT statement is the perspective of a
>> SINGLE stove.   But when they are used by the thousands, each 1200 TLUD
>> stoves produce about one ton of char/biochar EACH DAY.    36,000 in West
>> Bengal are producing about 30 tons per day, every day, and have been doing
>> so for a few years, and will continue.   On a worldwide scale today, that
>> much charcoal is probably more than that of all the flame-cap devices
>> combined on a daily basis.   (That last statemen can be challenge if anyone
>> has and data.)
>>
>>
>>
>> AND the heat energy is not being wasted when TLUD stoves make
>> charcoal.      Although the comment in the table overlooks the importance
>> of “scale by number” (instead of “scale by size”), I am glad that the TLUD
>> stoves were at least mentioned in the report and Table.   That is progress
>> over being totally ignored.
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope that there is substantial discussion about the methane topic.
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>
>> Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP
>>
>> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu       Skype:   paultlud
>>
>> Phone:  Office: 309-452-7072    Mobile: 309-531-4434
>>
>> Website:   www.drtlud.com
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Schmidt, Hans-Peter <schmidt at ithaka-institut.org>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 21, 2019 12:29 AM
>> *To:* Anderson, Paul <psanders at ilstu.edu>
>> *Cc:* Kathleen Draper <draper at ithaka-institut.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: Webinar comments by Hans-Peter
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>> Please find attached our paper on low tech pyrolysis emissions. The
>> CH4-emissions of TLUD and Kon-Tikis are in the same order. Optimization of
>> gas combustion and especially the use of dry feedstock can greatly reduce
>> CH4-emissions of both. CH4-emissions of forest wild fires are in the some
>> order as optimized Kon-Tiki (see the other attached paper). In field
>> burning of  harvest residues produce more methane especially when the
>> residues are humid as is often the case.
>>
>> The quantity of emitted methane may not look high but as the Global
>> Warming Potential (GWP) of methane is about 100 times that of CO2 in the
>> first 20 years, the climate effect of rather low CH4-quantities is already
>> considerable.
>>
>> The problem with methane in all low-tech pyrolysis systems is that
>> methane molecules get wrapped by arising water vapor which prevent its
>> combustion.
>>
>> Be well, Hans-Peter
>>
>>
>>
>> *Von: *"Anderson, Paul" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
>> *Datum: *Donnerstag, 21. Februar 2019 um 04:25
>> *An: *"Schmidt, Hans-Peter" <schmidt at ithaka-institut.org>
>> *Cc: *"biochar at yahoogroups.com" <biochar at yahoogroups.com>
>> *Betreff: *RE: Webinar comments by Hans-Peter
>>
>>
>>
>> Hans-Peter,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>>
>>
>> There was no attached graph.   Please send.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am assuming that you are not subscribed to the Biochar Listserv because
>> you do not send replies to that address.   So I am forwarding your very
>> valuable comments to the Biochar listserv.   More comments are below.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>
>> Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP
>>
>> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu       Skype:   paultlud
>>
>> Phone:  Office: 309-452-7072    Mobile: 309-531-4434
>>
>> Website:   www.drtlud.com
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Schmidt, Hans-Peter <schmidt at ithaka-institut.org>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 20, 2019 6:01 PM
>> *To:* Anderson, Paul <psanders at ilstu.edu>
>> *Subject:* Re: Webinar comments by Hans-Peter
>>
>>
>>
>> ... considering that 40 t DM of biomass per ha is what can be expected in
>> tropical carbon farming systems, the 1500 t of biomass necessary for one
>> standard size E-pyrolysis would need about 40 ha. And even when they do not
>> achieve those numbers in productivity in the first years, with 100 – 200 ha
>> there would be enough biomass per village. In the tropics, this is more or
>> less year around, and the machines can work in continuous processes.
>>
>>
>>
>> *[PSA>>]  The above is a valuable statement.   DM is “dry matter”,
>> right?     Just knowing about 40 t/ha/year would require 40 ha, and then to
>> have extra, allow up to 100 or 200 ha.   100 ha is NOT a very big area; it
>> is only 1 sq km.*
>>
>> *So a safe easy statement is that there can  be sufficient biomass to
>> produce 1 t of char per day for a year from a area the size of about 1 sq
>> km.   *
>>
>> *??? Did I say that correctly?   We do not want to be saying things that
>> we later need to retract.   *
>>
>> *???? Maybe others who are in the tropical settings (Thailand, Uganda,
>> etc.) could comment about this.*
>>
>>
>>
>> The US$ 50.000 estimate are based on our experimental E-Pyrolysis data,
>> the Pyreg 1 t BC per day systems and experiences with other rotary kiln
>> systems.
>>
>> *[PSA>>] I looked up the Pyreg rotary kiln.   Nice video of a small model
>> at *
>>
>> *https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=138&v=Rok9a28IJqQ
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=138&v=Rok9a28IJqQ>*
>>
>> *???Where is there some info of a larger unit that does 1 t BC per day?
>> Or was that a calculated estimate of scale-up?   Either way, that is a good
>> starting  point.*
>>
>>
>>
>> It is only an estimate but I do not see any that may increase the
>> material and construction cost beyond 50.000 when it enters serial mass
>> production. And I also think that 50.000 would be a kind of limit for
>> investors to start upscaling.
>>
>> *[PSA>>] I agree.   The $50,000 is not a trivial amount and could be the
>> limit for investors.   And that is ONLY based on when serial mass
>> production is possible.   *
>>
>> *??? Statement:   What the world needs is a 1 t of BC per day system that
>> costs only $25,000.    Is that a good goal or “dream”???   Would that price
>> make the production  of biochar become a major factor quickly???    I would
>> like several people to comment about this.   Not just Hans-Peter has
>> answers.   Comments from all are appreciated.*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The methane emissions shown in the graph are based on our Kon-Tiki paper
>> (attached). The data are even much worse when the feedstock is not
>> completely dry. We are going to publish a paper about it within the next
>> months.
>>
>> *[PSA>>] As said before, please send the graph.   I really did not
>> associate methane with burning of biomass.   I need some instruction.
>> Does an open fire (bonfire or campfire or 3-stone fire) put out
>> considerable methane emissions?   The testing of cookstoves does NOT have a
>> methane concern!!!!    So is it something about the flame-cap of the
>> Kon-Tiki  and other open cone kilns that “causes” the methane to be created
>> and to escape??  Please help with this question.   I am still not
>> understanding about methane for such fires.*
>>
>>
>>
>> *[PSA>>] Paul*
>>
>> Best, hp
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Von: *"Anderson, Paul" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
>> *Datum: *Mittwoch, 20. Februar 2019 um 23:57
>> *An: *'Hans-Peter Schmidt' - Switzerland - Nepal <
>> schmidt at ithaka-institut.org>, "biochar at yahoogroups.com" <
>> biochar at yahoogroups.com>
>> *Cc: *"Anderson, Paul" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
>> *Betreff: *Webinar comments by Hans-Peter
>>
>>
>>
>> Hans-Peter,
>>
>>
>>
>> Just wondering, why do you think that the 1 t/day of char production
>> would be a size that would be appropriate for villages?    We are
>> discussing developing countries.  Would this be expected year round, or
>> maybe only seasonally for 2 to 5 months (and then idle)?
>>
>>
>>
>> And where did the $50,000 price per pyrolyzer installation come from?   I
>> am content if you say it was just a convenient number, but maybe you have
>> some basis for it.
>>
>>
>>
>> *********
>>
>> Another question:
>>
>> I was surprised by your comment about the (relatively) high emissions of
>> methane from the Kon Tiki (and other) flame-cap charmakers.   Any links to
>> reports about this?   Why methane?   I would have more easily believe high
>> PM or CO.
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>
>> Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP
>>
>> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu       Skype:   paultlud
>>
>> Phone:  Office: 309-452-7072    Mobile: 309-531-4434
>>
>> Website:   www.drtlud.com
>>
>>
>>
>> __._,_.___
>>
>> Attachment(s) from Anderson, Paul | View attachments on the web
>> <https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/biochar/attachments/465317892;_ylc=X3oDMTJyOTdhbms2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDM4MDUyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNzQxODYxMgRzZWMDYXR0YWNobWVudARzbGsDdmlld09uV2ViBHN0aW1lAzE1NTA3NTk5NDE->
>>
>> 1 of 1 File(s)
>> cornelissen-kon-tiki_2016_PLOSOne.pdf
>> <https://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/22438052/1884038946/name/cornelissen-kon-tiki_2016_PLOSOne%2Epdf>
>> ------------------------------
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