[Stoves] [biochar] Re: Biochar makers that are low emission, fire safe, and "look like" a stove, oven or heater

Fri Jan 18 10:59:22 CST 2019

Dear Gordon

Glad you liked it.  I also enjoy a good laugh. Thanks for the reply. Lots of details there and a plan on the boards.  There are some really good pieces on the Finland forest story including a few<https://www.axios.com/congo-ebola-outbreak-surpasses-600-cases-ffd93bf1-77cc-4f08-912d-6d3bd104ece0.html> on the difference between Sweden (fires more like California) and Finland (not). From what I read so far, none of the management systems have the private sector/profitability angle of the US plan. It may because the whole forest is managed as a resource – sort of like large scale farming.

The plan you describe sounds new. Does this represent a change in policy or the extension of something tried and shown effective?

There certainly seems to be a viable<https://smy.fi/en/artikkeli/finland-has-a-problem-with-too-few-forest-fires-to-promote-biodiversity-burned-down-areas-should-be-protected/> solution in Finland.

““Burned-down forest is one of the rarest habitats in Finland,” says Henrik Lindberg, renowned forest fire expert and researcher at the Häme University of Applied Sciences.

“In 2017, for example, forest fires damaged only 470 hectares in the land of 23 million hectares of forest. The last time that over a thousand hectares burned down was in 2006.”
I lived for a long time in Africa in a place where there were no trees, historically.  The traditional same for it is “the treeless place”.   Now they have planted a great many trees in managed “plantations”.  These are subject to annual dry season total droughts, and wet times in mid-summer. These new environments with imported trees have unusual problems created by, for example, the absence of fungi that can break down pine needles.  This creates a major fire danger that has to be managed by removal, introducing or encouraging mushrooms, numerous fire access roads, clear cutting sections and burning (open) all the slash and constant monitoring. In general the conditions are a lot like northern California – good for trees but occasional droughts.

Dear Paul T

Gordon’s response is not very encouraging about the small scale application of “something”.  It is definitely big scale. I was looking at large (40 ton) portable char making machines last week trying to work out how much smoke they produced.  They were the hot air curtain type and are very fast, but huge.  They can take tree stumps and very large logs whole. The main product is lump charcoal.

If your neighbours want to engage in virtue signaling, a small demonstration unit could process some material, but if the amount is anything like the scale the Finns remove, you have a capacity problem.

Perhaps the first question to ask is, “Whose forest is it?”
Whose problem is it to manage?

I can’t find anything on line about family-scale participation but that doesn’t mean the scale you seek won’t work.  Chris Adam spent a lot of time working on things about that scale. The only thing he failed at was getting a decent burn using wet(ish) wood. That doesn’t sound like your problem.

As a first suggestion perhaps the best device will be a single drum with removable top (modified) with another drum on top to serve as a draft tube within which the flames can be contained.  It is going to need a wire mesh over the top. One way to get something durable is scrapped bread baking equipment, the chain mail-looking material that transports the loaves through the oven.  It’s wonderful.

Regards
Crispin

Subject: Re: [Stoves] [biochar] Re: Biochar makers that are low emission, fire safe, and "look like" a stove, oven or heater

The Trollworks and Southwest Energy Integrators are beginning a USDA Forest Service grant funded pilot project that covers all of the issues being discussed here. I see a good deal of misconception about the forest issues, which is common even in the forestry field, due to competing interests, political prejudices, and limited funding - all combining to make practical solutions more difficult.

An outline of our pilot: It is taking place in a Southwestern US ecosystem dominated by pinyon, juniper, and Ponderosa pine forests, which are generally in need of thinning of biomass built up over a century of mismanagement via three primary factors; overgrazing (removal of fine fuels on the forest floor), natural fire suppression, and big tree logging. The idea that these forest floors need “raking”, and that was the cause of the disastrous Camp Fire is beyond laughable - those fuels are necessary for the kind of fire that has been missing for so long as a component of natural ecosystem management. What needs to be removed is the overstocking of small trees and brush. That costs money and proactive commitment, which are in short supply. Tax cuts are no replacement for thinning cuts…

A solution is to create products that can be made from such liability biomass, thereby giving it some value that can offset some of the costs of acquisition. Biochar and energy have the potential to do that better than any other product we have worked with. However, we have learned through decades of experience in the rural community context, that it is of critical importance to coordinate and optimize the whole process from forest planning through biomass acquisition, primary breakdown of materials, processing into char and storable char feedstock, utilization of the heat energy from the biogas, and finally establishment of local char markets - to make the system work. Working on any one of these elements in isolation from the system context will introduce costs and inefficiencies that can prevent success.

The pilot project is to take thinned material from the national forest to a modest collection and processing yard where it will be chipped.
The chips will be loaded into a dryer/hopper where air heated from combusting pyrolysis gases will blow through the hopper drying the biomass.
The dried chips will go to a hammermill to be sized for pelletizing.
About 30% of the pelletized material will be fed into the pyrolyzers and made into char and more heat for drying biomass.
The remaining 70% of pellets will be bagged and stored for use in the heating season.
Several pyrolyzer/boiler systems will be installed at a campus building at the site (a college), and the pellets will be used to provide building heat while making char.
The char will be sold locally or used by the college in STEM curricula, soil science, and R&D endeavors.
The pilot is expected to displace $50K/year in propane expense and net $20K in “profit” assuming a modest price for the char can be realized.
To the greatest extent possible, existing businesses (forest thinners, haulers, wood products businesses, power line maintenance companies, etc) will be integrated into the community scaled system.
The system will be highly adaptable to existing conditions by virtue of being modular and easily scalable.
There will be no open burning.
Almost any biomass source can be accommodated.

We expect to begin production this Spring.

Gordon West
The Trollworks
503 N. “E” Street
Silver City, NM 88061
575-537-3689

An entrepreneur sees problems as the seeds of opportunity.

On Jan 18, 2019, at 4:37 AM, Paul Taylor potaylor at bigpond.com<mailto:potaylor at bigpond.com> [biochar] <biochar at yahoogroups.com<mailto:biochar at yahoogroups.com>> wrote:

Hi Crispin:  Thanks for your response, and starting the dialogue.

My suggestion of scale was meant to be for 200L and above.  Large scale units have been designed and manufactured in Australia to pass EPA regulations, but they are far too expensive for a small property holder.  For widespread use by homesteaders (such as on properties in “suburban” forest covered hills, at the transition to the bush), the cost needs to be low, and it seems if it does not look like a stove or oven there would not yet be a classification to allow it on the house-holder property, no matter that the alternative might be an open burn or bush fire on the property, with far more emissions.

Hence my enquiry, which I felt addressed a widespread niche.  The corollary is an increased refinement of functioning, but economic, CHAB (combined heat and biochar) designs. The largest such device might mimic a large pizza oven (and as CHAB an open living heater, greenhouse heater etc.).  Smaller than 200L are insufficient to handle the unprocessed biomass, and anyway those devices are well explored.  Continuous units of course are better, except I do not observe them yet meeting the budget that householders seem prepared to spend.

In the area there is lots of horse manure, so pre and post treating is possible, and would be needed for people with business leanings.

In response to the damage and deaths from large fires, changes in practice must be occurring in Australia also, but in this particular area bordering national park, the response to confronting extreme danger in defensive burns has been to disallow all burns (at least in drought times). That of course will be unsustainable.  In Germany, where we often are, people are willing and eager to go out and hand-harvest the limb-fall and thin the forest for winter stove use, but modern Australians seem less eager for manual caretaking of the country, and more inclined to thinking in terms of large bulldozer scale – not going to happen on small properties next to a national park though.

I do advocate the personal and social value of manual caretaking.  I therefore advocate getting taxes off labor and onto fossil fuels and financial transaction. Then the work of people will be more valued, and innovation will lead to renewable energy AI-micro-mechanization (robots), who can in coming decades take over much of the manual caretaking of country and farm.

I suppose we are also finally admitting we have something to learn from the original caretakers.  I have great respect for how they managed their country with fire-sticks prior to 1788, as well described in the book ”the worlds biggest estate”  https://www.amazon.com/Biggest-Estate-Earth-Bill-Gammage-ebook/dp/B00KTKNWEW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1547807129&sr=8-1&keywords=the+worlds+biggest+estate<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FBiggest-Estate-Earth-Bill-Gammage-ebook%2Fdp%2FB00KTKNWEW%2Fref%3Dsr_1_1%3Fie%3DUTF8%26qid%3D1547807129%26sr%3D8-1%26keywords%3Dthe%2Bworlds%2Bbiggest%2Bestate&data=02%7C01%7C%7C07e229e3331e4918d3a008d67d5aa724%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636834225637680506&sdata=Ij%2F9zDuUTh4XnVRU9g6YS1PjOHnU0ZssifsCoEIX6Fw%3D&reserved=0>

Where they are allowed to manage in the traditional way today, the result is smoke and fire visible, as elsewhere in the world, from space.  We need to do better now than return the C to the atmosphere, and scatter soot on the polar ice. Aussies, though, would not be inclined to burn much of anything in our hot and dry seasons, unless they are an arsonist.

My particular concern in the enquiry to the stove-biochar group was the niche of medium scale stove/oven “appearing” or acting devices.  I am interested in all scales, so discussion of the more commercial scales is welcome.  I generally spend less personal time on commercial scale in my mission of democratizing knowledge and action related to biochar, because commercial designs are progressing, and companies lobby in their own interests.  However, if the citizen is not empowered with knowledge and a hand in managing their own property and the common atmosphere, then politicians and many businesses will most certainly allow and encourage things to go countercurrent to the common good.

Kind regards...Paul

On 1/18/19, 2:59 PM, "Anderson, Paul" <psanders at ilstu.edu<x-msg://12/psanders@ilstu.edu>> wrote:
Crispin,    see below   (All should note that BOTH the Stoves and Biochar Listserv are receiving these messages.   Some people (double-dippers like me) will get two copies.   Those on only one Listserv will be sending replies to only that one List will send out.   So be prepared that some messages will not reach everyone on the first transmission.)  (I also send some of my messages to the ePosts section of my website www.drtlud.com<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.drtlud.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C07e229e3331e4918d3a008d67d5aa724%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636834225637680506&sdata=frYPklBD%2BZmB%2BN2G7DZuAzF0j%2FMLTjiPfRadJ1InX%2Fc%3D&reserved=0> <http://www.drtlud.com<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.drtlud.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C07e229e3331e4918d3a008d67d5aa724%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636834225637680506&sdata=frYPklBD%2BZmB%2BN2G7DZuAzF0j%2FMLTjiPfRadJ1InX%2Fc%3D&reserved=0>>  so that they are in  some additional record.)

Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP
Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu<x-msg://12/psanders@ilstu.edu> <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>        Skype:   paultlud
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From: Stoves <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org<x-msg://12/stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org>> On Behalf Of Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2019 9:12 PM
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org<x-msg://12/stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org>>; Paul Taylor <potaylor at bigpond.com<x-msg://12/potaylor@bigpond.com>>; biochar at yahoogroups.com<x-msg://12/biochar@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: 'Hans-Peter Schmidt' - Switzerland - Nepal <schmidt at ithaka-institut.org<x-msg://12/schmidt@ithaka-institut.org>>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Biochar makers that are low emission, fire safe, and "look like" a stove, oven or heater

Dear Paul A and Paul T

Questions.

  1.  Why has the scale to be as small as 200 L? Given the scale of the requirement (doing what the Finns do which is to rake the forest of material with a bulldozer-type unit to get it out of the way) it seems you need a much larger approach to make the system viable economically and to deal with the volumes.
PSA:  200 L is a convenient size for learning.   Making larger requires more money or uncommon “barrels.”   But they do need to become larger, even MUCH larger.  What Paul T. described with forced air exists already in the shipping-container size for a lot of money.

  1.  Are we to assume that a batch loaded unit that could be loaded and left to burn out, self-extinguish and cool before unloading would be more acceptable to the EPA than something which is continuous, and which episodically expels red hot char?
PSA:  No.   The batch loaded is unlikely to be scalable to sufficient size.   And red hot char is extracted from the 4C kiln with appropriate safety measures.   4C is Covered, Controlled, CONTINUOUS Cavity kiln  (Cavity as in the Kon-Tiki, cone, trough, and trench kilns.   All have a cavity so that the “Flame Cap” combustion can be functional.

  1.  Is the char production efficiency an issue (at all)?
PSA:  No.   Where biomass quantity is a problem, efficiency is not an issue.   The want to be rid of the biomass.  Zero char but cleared away is better than having the biomass in  excess but created some char.  Best is to clear well AND have biochar.  I call it PBR  Pyrolytic Biomass Reduction (or Reducer, to refer to the device).

  1.  Is there a local market for char-containing fertilizers (which requires other inputs to make something viable)?  Char on its own is not a fertiliser.
PSA:  Valid question, but not part of this discussion.

Paul A.   (ended here)

It sounds like the Aussies are now behind the Californians when it comes to forest management. In the US the forestry service, as well as in California, tried hard to get you to “prevent forest fires” and as a result the buildup of truly dangerous amounts of forest litter has, combined with human foolishness and malfeasance (most forest fires are caused by people, not “temperatures”) to create catastrophic fires. The recent deaths of hundreds of people in the Camp Fire started by defective electrical equipment in a forest where “green activists” banned: cleaning the forest floor, building needed fire access roads and controlled burns, has brought the foolishness of the decades long battle to “prevent fires” into sharp focus.  They are now talking openly about returning to the forest management practices of the First Nations people which is to wait for damp conditions and make a controlled burn to remove the clutter.

The Finnish alternative, which involves a lot more money, is to clear the forest debris mechanically and dispose of it in some manner.

I suggest that it will remain illegal to burn this material to char in the middle of the dry season. It is far more realistic to hear them say it should be stored until the forest is damp and then processed.  Perhaps Tom Miles can comment on the likelihood of being allowed to burn this material in anythingduring the dry season.

The traditional method of management causes the fires to burn slowly and create a good deal of char “naturally” in situ, at scale. If everyone has forgotten how to manage such controlled burns, they are going to have to do something to control the fires because the efficiency of biomass production is up 30% in the past century and will increase even more in the coming one.

Perhaps this is a great opportunity to create a really useful resource out of waste material.  If they don’t know how to manage forests, then they can learn to manage the by-products, at least out-of-season.

Regards
Crispin

+++++++++

All,

Sorry for the premature sending a moment ago.

I am confirming that I intend to provide details about the latest of the 4C kiln.  I am not sure if I can complete it before I head to ETHOS next Thursday.

IMHO, it will be worth the wait, and I will welcome collaborators who take the development further.

Paul

Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP
Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu<x-msg://12/psanders@ilstu.edu> <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>        Skype:   paultlud
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From: Paul Taylor <potaylor at bigpond.com<x-msg://12/potaylor@bigpond.com>>
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2019 6:14 AM
To: Anderson, Paul <psanders at ilstu.edu<x-msg://12/psanders@ilstu.edu>>; biochar at yahoogroups.com<x-msg://12/biochar@yahoogroups.com>; Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org<x-msg://12/stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org>>
Cc: 'Hans-Peter Schmidt' - Switzerland - Nepal <schmidt at ithaka-institut.org<x-msg://12/schmidt@ithaka-institut.org>>
Subject: Biochar makers that are low emission, fire safe, and "look like" a stove, oven or heater

Hi all: I am in Australia confronted with the problem of dealing with the issue of excess fuel load in forests in a hot and warming environment. Forest services have rejected in some areas any use ever of pre-burns because of high risk that they get away. People who would like to treat the fuel as a resource for making biochar on their own property are confronted with regulations that prevent any fire device except a stove (cooking or heating).

Ethos and Aprovecho have been about developing and perfecting stoves (that sometimes make biochar).  I would like to develop and refine devices that make biochar and sometimes perform functions of a stove or heater, and importantly look like, a stove or heater to the EPA when they come around.  An important scale level would be 55g drum size reaction vessel (or outer envelope), optimized to make biochar with low smoke and VERY low fire danger, but passing the test that they are stove, firebox, heater or oven.  The dominant fuel that the device should be receptive to is limb wood, such as arm sized.

The open flame-cap devices would clearly be perceived as a fire threat, and rightly so in high fire danger environments. Paul Anderson’s 4C device could be modified and refined to be safer, and to pass muster as a fire place, stove or heater, but serve primarily to make good quantities of biochar.   Is anybody working in this direction or seen good designs?

Paul A,  what refinements would you like to have present in the 4C when it is questioned by the EPA.

Paul

__._,_.___
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