[Stoves] ***SPAM*** Fwd: [Biochar] Clean burning of wood gas

[Ronal Larson]

List,  cc Kirk and Norm

	This has more relevance to the stoves list than the biochar list.

Ron


> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: "Ron Larson" <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Biochar] Clean burning of wood gas
> Date: December 30, 2020 at 1:23:06 PM MST
> To: "main at biochar.groups.io" <main at Biochar.groups.io>
> Cc: Kirk Harris <gkharris316 at comcast.net>, Norman Baker <ntbakerphd at gmail.com>
> Reply-To: main at Biochar.groups.io
> 
> List, cc  Kirk,  Norm. (Both friends, with whom I have had years of correspondence and discussions)
> 
> 	This is one of the best exchanges on this list for a long time - for the device side of biochar.  Thanks to you both for making this a public discussion and disclosure.
> 
> 	 In the message I sent at 7:12 PM Denver time 2 days ago (the main figure repeated below), this is a classic case of a new development in Box 4.   According to that diagram, this dialog could also (less directly) influence one or both or all such pyrolysis devices’ two outputs:  Box 1 (biochar) and  Box 5 (CO and H2).   It possibly could be influenced by Boxes 3 and 7 (new and old biomass).  People identifying in the remaining groups (0, 2, 6, 8, 9) probably can pay scant attention (depending on their possible secondary connection to Box 2 (uses, such as selling stoves) or Box 2 (an SDG like health aspects -SDG 3 ), or in Box 1 (improved biochar) . 
> 	In any biochar group, world wide,  Norm and Kirk's first lines could be:  “This is a  dialog on a new 4 4 development”.  List members in the other 9 categories can read a bit more according to their Box proximity and the directions of the nearby arrows.
> 
> 	Still hoping for some comments on this vs other ways to best transfer any new development to all of biochar (group 0) and/or to the rest of the world (group 9).
> 
> 	Preferably a phone call:  303-526-9629.  (to save me time as I write this up further— expecting about 10-12 pages for the 30 + categories on this figure - that can serve as one possibly way to introduce biochar or some other reason.)
> 
> Ron
> 
> 
> 
> 	
> 
>> On Dec 30, 2020, at 12:42 AM, Kirk Harris <gkharris316 at comcast.net <mailto:gkharris316 at comcast.net>> wrote:
>> 
>> Norm,
>> 
>> Thank you for your response.  I like the idea of super efficient turbulence and will give that further thought.  The difference I see between turbulence and injection mixing is the pressure difference between the wood gas and the secondary air.  Both techniques provide lots of surface contact between the gasses, and minimal penetration depth, however turbulence creates a lumpy mix.  The regions of gas and air in this lumpy mix have no pressure difference pushing the gasses into each other, and so molecule to molecule mixing is dependent on diffusion.  Injection as I have described it, provides all three, (large surface contact, shallow depth of penetration, and pressure difference (from buoyancy and increased by the Venturi effect)) all at the same time.  The pressure difference between the gas and air is maximized and used to push the gasses together at the moment of combustion, not lost as with turbulence.  This gives immediate molecule to molecule mixing.    A bonus is that diffusion is still there, helping in the mix.  Also it does no good to create turbulence in the wood gas if there is inadequate introduction of the secondary air.  Super efficient turbulence because of this enhanced pressure difference might be a good way of looking at it.
>> 
>> Thank you for your insightful contributions, helping me to work through this,
>> 
>> Kirk H.
>> 
>> On 12/29/2020 9:54 PM, Norm Baker wrote:
>>> Kirk;
>>> 
>>> I finally had time to sit down and carefully understand everything you said. First, I think you are entirely correct in your interpretations. Buoyancy is what the combustion engineers call stack effect, but I personally kind of like buoyancy - it's more descriptive. Second the architecture of the TLUD with the sequence of concentrator rings and bluff bodies and cooking pot all ensure complete mixing of the woodgas and the oxygen. Sort of a superefficient turbulence to ensure complete mixing. And, you get clean emissions because it is mixed molecule by molecule. We just don't see typical laminar flames, like you see on a campfire. I assume you are using wood pellets as a fuel.
>>> 
>>> I find it very interesting that your concepts of buoyancy are very similar to what I have been looking at from the combustion literature of jet fuels where they must consider back pressures at every stage of combustion. About two years ago, I purchased some silicone carbide porous media wafers - 3" X 3" X 3/4" from China. These things are used in combustion of vaporized fossil fuel products and pollutants where combustion is a good way to dispose of them and still meet clean-air standards. Clear Sign (https://clearsign.com/technology-library/ <https://clearsign.com/technology-library/>) is a company in Seattle that manufactures complete systems for sale. They have a white paper on the whole subject that shows or demonstrates how their systems work (https://clearsign.com/technology-library/#collapse-1-19925 <https://clearsign.com/technology-library/#collapse-1-19925>). For some reason they have removed the videos that showed them in action. The flames seen in these videos are very similar to those seen in your stove. These silicone carbide wafers are designed for pressurized systems - not natural draft systems although I've always wondered if they would work with a forced air stove. I consulted with a world expert at the University of Ontario and he told me to use the highest porosity wafer I could buy. So I purchased wafers of 90% porosity. I had high hopes they would work on a TLUD. Unfortunately, they were a dismal failure and I eventually gave the entire lot to the burn lab on Vashon Island hoping they could do something with them. At the last ethos meeting, they did not work for them either on any kind of clean cook stove.
>>> 
>>> More recently I have been looking at jet fuel combustion where they use perforated plates to get the same kind of mixing needed for complete combustion. So far all I have done is purchase the plates.  The one thing that is clear from the jet fuel combustion literature is that the sequence of changes in back pressure at each intersection through a combustion chamber must each go down or reduce in back pressure for successful operation. Going to be interesting to see what they do in a big TLUD and it will also be interesting when I go down to Aprovecho for emissions testing with Ryan.
>>> 
>>> Thanks again for the detailed explanation and the figures explaining your concepts.
>>> 
>>> Norm
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
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