[Stoves] Methane emissions from flame cap kilns FW: ARC E-Newsletter 1/13/21: Inventor's Pride - Watch Out!

Fri Jan 15 07:13:26 CST 2021

Dear Paul'n'All

Testing for "methane" is unlikely to have been done by more than a few people.  Methane is normally detected by an NDIR cell which illuminates a chamber with an infrared laser and measures what response there is at different wavelengths.  One may obtain an NDIR cell from places such as Infrared Industries in California for $1500 which quite a lot of capabilities including full communication.

These cells read more than one thing at a time.  For example, one can have a "window" with special glass that only passes a narrow set of frequencies from "hydrocarbons".  The typical cell in an Enerac (the inventors of the all-in-one combustion analyser) has an NDIR cell with 4 windows.  One is a reference signal, and the other three are for specific gases.  However, it is more complicated that "picking a gas".  The cell reads CO, and CO2, and "hydrocarbons" centered on methane.

This "centering" means it uses a detector to interpret what comes in and the centre of the frequency range is CH4.  However it is listed as a CxHy where y=2x.   It will detect a number of gases including methane, with the centre of the range of sensitivity mathematically adjusted to read methane more strongly than the others, but it is not a "methane detector".  That is why it claims to detect "hydrocarbons".

So, from the get-go, most claims to have measured methane in the field should be taken with a grain of salt.

Next, what are the attendant claims?  Why is someone anxious to know what the methane emissions are?  There is nearly no methane in the atmosphere - something like 2.7 ppb IIRC.  All over the world there are natural gas seeps from underground.  The Earth bleeds methane constantly from millions of sources, but it disappears.  Why?  It is converted in sunlight to CO2.

Let me guess: Someone is making extravagant and extrapolated claims about methane from charcoal production.

As for the "Lorena stove", performance claims made about a multi-pot stove are to be questioned closely.  What test was used? What performance metric was reported?  Was the test employed intended to report the performance of a single-pot stove applied to a multi0pot stove?

Lorena stoves come in literally all sizes and heat one or more pots.  Many heat 4.  The common test was the Berkeley WBT 3.x and 4.x which is supposed to be able to handle up to 4 pots.  What was the claim made about Lorena stoves being "less than an open fire?  Specific fuel consumption to cook one pot?  Multiple pots?

How was a multi-pot stove compared with an open fire?  Was the open fire used to cook 4 pots or one?  How was the open fire operated, because many people have shown that an open fire is 30% efficient.  Testing two and three pot sand/clay stoves in Indonesia, it is pretty easy to achieve that mark.

Cecil and I have good friends who built a large Lorena stove in the early 80's and used if every day.  It saved a lot of fuel compared with an open fire, it got the smoke out of the house, and it stored a lot of heat to warm the house overnight.  They like it and promoted it in their nearby communities.

Sometimes the "mistake" that needs to be admitted is that the rating measures were selected in error.  There is no point in repeating a test to assess a metric chosen in error.  It is as pointless as naval-gazing.

This is not:  https://youtu.be/vN30emwcNS4

Spread that, instead of fears about methane from charcoal.   You might help someone, a lot.

Regards
Crispin

From: Stoves <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org> On Behalf Of Anderson, Paul

Dean and Sam and Nordica (leaders at Aprovecho) and all  (especially Ryan Thompson and Christian Rakos),

Your newsletter is appreciated, and the message this time needs to be taken to heart by all of us (see below).   Inventions need to be tested and claims should not be based on the absence of evidence.

One point that comes to mind is the comment that there is methane coming off of the fires of flame-cap charcoal makers (open top cavity kilns) such as the Oregon kilns and Kon-Tiki.   This also could apply to my covered top cavity kilns.

I know that char makers are not the focus of Aprovecho.   My question is whether or not Aprovecho has tested for methane or could test for methane.   And if Ryan or Christian do testing for methane.

And then the questions become:   What results are known?   Where and how can methane emissions from  flame cap kilns (open or covered tops) be conducted?   Is this an important topic?

There is a corollary to the Aprovecho statement in the newsletter:   Issues such as methane emissions that are NOT tested should not be readily embraced as if the doubts are actually true or worthy of embracing.

Looking forward to the discussion.

Paul

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         with pages 88 - 94 about solving the world crisis for clean cookstoves.

From: Aprovecho Research Center <info at aprovecho.org<mailto:info at aprovecho.org>>
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 7:31 PM
To: Aprovecho Research Center eNewsletter <enewsletter at aprovecho.org<mailto:enewsletter at aprovecho.org>>
Subject: ARC E-Newsletter 1/13/21: Inventor's Pride - Watch Out!

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Inventor's Pride: Watch Out!
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Almost perfect!

Having unbiased villagers or Dr. Jim Jetter test Aprovecho's Lorena stove might have helped to reduce our embarrassment when again and again the open fire was proven to be much more fuel efficient! Inventor's pride is a well-known human frailty. Creating a truth-telling team including all the folks concerned with a stove project helps to address the inventor who is doing what feels natural and right, but can be misguided. It happens at ARC frequently!

The ARC team has found that an engineer/researcher may know more about the thermodynamics of a stove, but the expertise of cooks, manufacturers, distributors, retailers, and funders in the stove project need to be included in the decision making process from start to maturity. Test, test, test!

As Dr. Kirk Smith said, "You get what you inspect, not what you expect".

Our advice is to test everything frequently from all angles and try to respond to problems without inventor's pride. It's not easy! Cognitive dissonance messes up judgement all the time. It's easy to think, "I am intelligent, and make good decisions." Admitting a mistake can threaten that image of self. It can be really hard to hear someone say, "Man, that Lorena stove is terrible! How could you have been so dumb?"

Use criticisms as a tool to improve your product. Take time to assess and define the problems. Consult with your team about how to make improvements, and then move forward towards a more successful outcome.

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