[Stoves] ***SPAM*** Fwd: Seeking Advice: Technical Evaluation of the Patung-Patong Brick Stove

[Ronal Larson]

List, cc Jed

	Jed meant this below to go to the list.   

	At the end,  he suggests going to this site;:    https://www.facebook.com/bahayteknik <https://www.facebook.com/bahayteknik>
	
	Much new good information below.  it’s getting late in Colorado - so more tomorrow.

	After visiting the bahayteknik site I guess the value per dollar is maybe 3;1 in the Philippines.  I’m going to look into shipping charges.

Ron


> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: Joshua Guinto <jed.building.bridges at gmail.com <mailto:jed.building.bridges at gmail.com>>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Seeking Advice: Technical Evaluation of the Patung-Patong Brick Stove
> Date: March 13, 2021 at 7:47:58 PM MST
> To: Ronal Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net <mailto:rongretlarson at comcast.net>>
> 
> Dear Ron and everyone
> 
> My reply is in between your lines. 
> 
> Jed;   cc list
> 
> 	It’s very good to hear from you again.    To others -  Jed/Joshua easily holds the world record for best artistic stoves.  No complaints/comments about that being absent in today’s video and discussion, because he has to simplify for a commercial market,
> 
> 	 But I hope Jed can still share any new ones that are as uniquely artistic as in the past.
> 
> Hmmmmm....... would my stove art qualify to the guinness? ( joking here.....) 
> 
> More below.
> .
> 
>> On Mar 10, 2021, at 9:04 PM, Joshua Guinto <jed.building.bridges at gmail.com <mailto:jed.building.bridges at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Dear Fellow Stovers
>> 
>> It has been awhile, please excuse me for my silence. Life and career here in the Philippines has not been gentle considering the series of disasters on top of the COVID 19 pandemic. I really "hit the ground" and am now just about getting up. 
> 	[RWL1:   Did you have the virus?   Also recent hurricanes?   You looked well (and academic) in the video. 
> 
> Yes we have so/too much of the COVID virus. And the Philippine Government, the top officials are not doing equally well than the counterpart frontliners. The numbers are between ebbing down and then shooting up again. Movement is between restricted and regulated. I am holding classes on line for 90 % of my students who have internet access. One of the campus of the school, where i am supposed to actively hold agricultural projects still serves as an isolation unit. 
> 
> About hurricanes... we had the worst series last year. Three hurricanes in a row within two months. My solar dryers were totally destroyed and my bigger workshop totally damaged from a hurricane in the year earlier. 
> 
> And so at the height of the lockdown, amidst the heavy checkpoints i was struggling to revive my projects. ...Hauling seaweeds all alone at the beach then making fertilizers for families who are trying to raise vegetable gardens for their food supply. 
> 
>> 
>> I now work as a university professor at the College of Agriculture and Natural Sciences of the Camarines Norte State College. simply put : CANR-CNSC.And being a novice professor, i had to learn the academic culture and work routines. But the exciting part for this academe community is the wealth of technology and experience i am infusing into the school. 
> 	[RWL2;   Congratulations on this new well deserved position.
> 
> 		ASIDE.    In googling for CNSC,  I see an attractive pentagon symbol - especially with the word “spectrum”  and five colors (in the right order!).    I think there could be a benefit if your six-sided (three bricks per layer) had a sister design with the five “trapezoid bricks” of the CNSC spectrum.  A swirl injection would be a natural on the secondary air layer as a short side of one trapezoid  butts up against a long side of a neighboring trapezoid.   More bricks, but a simpler shape to make.  
> 	I’ve never seen a five-sided stove, but I’m pretty sure it would be better than the four-sided you have avoided with three bricks - each providing one side and two half-sides.
> 		to other respondents - this will only make sense after you see the school’s ’spectrum” publication.
>> 
>> Hmmmm,,,, a pentagon would seem doable... especially so if i will carve the logo of the CNSC into the bricks. 
>> 
>> The Patung - patong actually already has a swirl mechanism for its secondary air. They are off tangent holes built within the brick to promote the vortex of hot gases. It is more visible at the gasifier mode. 
>> 
>> And so to begin with i was asked to start doing research on the technologies i developed and on the top of the list is the cook stove i have been tinkering for almost a decade. 
> 	[RWL3:  You could also do a world service by adding the biochar soil benefits to your workload.   I’m not sure there is any skilled stove designer so near to the agsoil benefits of his/her stove design (your now being in an “ag”  department)..
> 
> Exactly so. The stove i designed actually as a char making stove. But people do not buy it for char making properties but instead buy the stove for good cooking properties.  I should somehow make a separate and better marketing concept and strategy for the char making property.  Or perhaps target an entirely separate market segment. 
>> 
>> I present to you the Patung-patong. (in Filipino it simply means put on top of one another). This stove i would like to bring to a technical evaluation using scientific parameters.
> 	[RWL3':   You certainly have the vertical description in this title - but the three bricks (or five) circumferentially is also a major feature worth promoting.
> 		Any data to report on commercial sales?
> 
> While we have sold close to a hundred for the past year, it is still slow. On the average, there is one stove sold every month.  This stove has to compete with what the households already have at their kitchen.... the charcoal and gas stoves. 
> 
> But we have a recent breakthrough... the PIZZA HEX OVEN. This is our new product line. It is a brick oven inspired by the OONI pizza oven but built with my firebricks and is placed on top of the Patung-patong. I will tell you more about this on a separate conversation thread. 
>> i hereby would like to ask for a guidance on what best paths to take to have an technical evaluation of the stove... first is about it being a  COOK STOVES
> 
> 	[RWL4:  You have several new features here that I don’t recall in your earlier stoves;
> 		a.  The bricks are now apparently high temperature, highly insulative.  Very expensive in the US.  Can you tell us more about these bricks - and especially is charcoal involved at all?
> 
> The bricks i used here are insulating. It is lighter than before. But the big lesson is..... to tweak the bricks with coats of hard and soft clay recipes. Insulating bricks get easily damaged by abrasions and impact. I had to learn to coat them with hard coats on the surface as added protection while keeping each brick light. 
> 
> And so from 25 kg of my older stove models, we were able to bring the weight to 13 kg for the smallest model. Plus the stainless steel frame make them protected and easily transportable. It is an added cost but worth the protection and ease of handling and safety.
> 
> 
> 		b.  The cookpot stand-offs seem to be quite advanced - both in the top ceramics layer and the metal.  This could be very interesting to the stove world as you perform water boiling tests with the same water amount in cookpots of different sizes and shapes (maybe with skirts and without) - using all the ways you have designed the stove top.
> 
> The stove top is the most in contact to the pot. The stainless metal frames allows pots of different sizes while protecting the brick stove top, It also serves as the handle during transport. 
> 
> The skirt can easily be installed on the sides of the hexagon metal top. 
> 
> 		c.   I’ve seen an extra slanted (45 degrees?) fuel container before - but not in TLUDs.   Obviously adds a bit to the cost, but allows for maybe a doubling (?) in run time.  Tell us more on why you have added this feature - and how it is received by users.
> 
> The slanted feeder gives ease in loading the fuel especially the granular fuels. Here in my region, we have an abundant supply of the pili (canarium ovatum) shells. This shell is the best fuel i found in all my travels around the world, better than wood chips, wood pellets or macadamia nuts. It is heavy, has the perfect shape and very cheap in my place. One kilogram of the shells gives about an hour of clean flame plus 250 grams of biochar. 
> 
> Another reason for the slanted hopper is for the brick plug to NOT fall off. This plug ensures that the flow of gases is correct during the gasification phase of the burn. 
> 
> 		d.  Can you add more on stove cost - especially comparing to the competition.  Any way to say how many months of use are needed to compete with a 3-stone stove?
> 
> About the fuel... the cost for an hour of GAS is Php 12.. for  CHARCOAL it is about Php 30. For the PILI SHELLS, it will be PHp 6. And if the household is diligent enough and harvest the char..... the cost will drop down to Php 3, considering the market value of the char for barbeque. 
> 
> The cost of the stove is Php 1,350 for the small model. The payback period is about 48 days. The next bigger model is Php 4,500. Lifetime is about 5 years. 
> 
> PHp 1,350 is prohibitive to most of the poor households which i would have wanted to have this stove. I sense they could only afford Php 500 or less to buy a stove up front. 
> 
> A cheap charcoal stove is about Php 85 and lasts for three months before their breakdown. 
> 
>> 	and second being a CHARCOAL MAKING STOVE.
> 
> 	[RWL5:  a.  You are now ahead of most of us in that world.
> 		b.   Being now in academia - you have a great chance to get everything about this stove done through student-designed testing - both in the lab and in user’s homes.  AND especially with char in the fields - or classroom pot tests.
> 
> Exactly. I'm thinking about students to go into thesis to go into collaborative research. Which is why im now into a search about the TEST PROTOCOLS. There is so much discussion in the stove list serve and i'm not sure which path to take. 
> 
> Another issue is about PATENTS. I'm now in the academic community. Patents and copyrights are by words. The Intellectual Property Office is prodding me to protect my designs through patents and copyrights lest there are those who will grab them away from me. And this actually happened to the works of other professors in the past. 
> 
> Patents as the Philippine law provides still gives me preferential options to give away designs for free to persons/entities i choose or demand payments in form of royalties from others. 
> 
> What do you think? 
> 
> 
> 		c.  You should explore how long you can be making char by adding extra fuel from the top (and side?)
> 
> I  tried adding fuel to the top. But the fuel bursts into dirty flames in about ten seconds.  To the sides is better because the new flame is not so dirty/ this it is the third reason for the BRICK PLUG. 
> 
> 
> 		d.  I’ve never seen any data on a stove operating for as long as possible as a TLUD, then removing the char quickly and then go into a rocket mode to finish up (leaving some hot char that is itself already combusting).  Can aa user do this changeover in a minute?  Having such non-charcoal making mode could help sell more stoves - while still retaining 90 (?) % of the initial char - when needed..
> 
> Yes, this mode works fine One hour in the gasifier mode with the pili shells, then drop the hot char in a snuffer can/kettle. And then proceed in a rocket mode while the stoves is still very hot. 
> 
> One big lesson i also learned. Better to fully load the entire feeder with wood  sticks but poking partly into the fire chamber. This achieves one important thiing the entry of cold air from the side is minimized while mimicking the gasifier mode to some extent thus cleaner flame.  
>> the third is about the cost effectiveness of this stove for a household in terms of fuel savings. 
>> 
>> 
>> [RWL 6    a.  You seem to have an efficient stove with fuel savings given that you are getting 25% char by weight.  Many TlUDS are getting less.
>> 
>> With a fuel cost of Php 6 for pili shells, this will easily compete with gas or charcoal. i think the bottle neck is the upfront cost for the poor household to buy the stove. 
>> 
>> My business model is to install resellers of the stove and shells in many parts of the province, and then make a buy back scheme for pili biochar. 
>> 
>> I still need more funds to create the necessary infrastructure.... more resellers,  technicians, more delivery wagons. 
>> 
> 
> 			b.  A simple water boiling test will give you the energy parameter numbers most stove sponsors are most interested in.  Glad to help with that “ISO” computation.
> 
> I now drowned with so many protocols and debates about the water boiling tests. Which one should i use? 
> 
> 			c.  I don’t know enough about low cost ways to measure. CO and particulates with the needed accuracy - but I recall that you know Dean Still and Apro.  Maybe others reading this can tell what the nearest testing lab is - and the costs.  Your device at 18 kg weight is able to be shipped and tested somewhere - but you’ll need funds that your today’s note might turn up.
> 
> Yes Dean Still and Aprovecho.... i hope that will be possible. My smallest stove is 13 kg and transportable. The pili shells is also transportable. H
> 
> Hello Dean.... 
> 
> 
>  
> d.   I believe the Ag soil benefits (over centuries) far exceeds its fuel savings benefits.
>> 
>> Attached is a poster about the stove.
> 
> 	[RWL7:   Attractive!  
> 	a.  This says ‘medium” model.  Can you also give the similar small and large stove model dimensions - and who is buying what.  I remember your video of a restaurant with a large oil-vat.   Can you now duplicate that in this new design?  Or the large?
> 
> Attached is a rare photo of the three sizes together ... the large, medium and small. 
> 
> 	b.   This poster and stove is totally independent of CNSC?  See above comment on pentagons - which might or might not be something you want to do.
> 
> yes it is totally independent of the CNSC. These are my works before i got into the university. 
> 
>> You may also see a short video clip on how to use it at 
>> 
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6IdvO_HuJE <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6IdvO_HuJE> 
> 
> 	[RWL8:   This a very good video. 
> 		 I hope you can insert some more English translations - as in the end.  English will help with raising funds.  Also might be helpful to add your name and new academic position in here somewhere on the poster.
> 
> Ok will ask my son to help me with this. 
> 
> 		I guess there may be some advantage in the Philippines to seeing the label “rocket stove” - because it can operate as one - ss can any  TLUD.   But the reverse is never true - no rocket can make char - the most valuable co-product that can be so important in the Philippines.
> 	if it were me, I’d replace “rocket" with ‘advanced char-making”.
> 
> Great idea. 
> 
> 
> 		or maybe “combined char-making and rocket”.    I leave out “TLUD” because that won’t sell any stoves.
> 	And especially appropriate for your designing a stove to make a product with mainly ag benefits - easily able to cover any extra stove costs.
> 	
> 
>             Hoping for any leads. 
>> 
>> Thanks in advance. 
> 	[RWL9:   may not be any leads above - but it's great to hear from you and to add a few thought on what you have been up to.   
> 
> 		Thank you for sharing.  You do excellent work.  CNSC is lucky to have you.
> 
> Much flattered here. 
> 
> Finally let me invite you to our new facebook page, the Bahay Teknik. There is much happening there now. It is my business and advocacy platform.
> 
> You will see how busy it is now with our recent breakthroughs. 
> 
>  My son Sandino runs the business and this page now. He will be very delighted if you could drop  a message there. 
> 
> 
> 
> Ron
> 
> 
> Joshua B. Guinto
> Specialist, Appropriate Technology
> MSc Management of AgroEcological Knowledge and Social Change (MAKS)
> Wageningen University, The Netherlands 2006 to 2008
> Recipient, International Fellowships Programme  Award (IFP) 2005
> Ford Foundation 
> 
> <snip.my messaged and a Photo  to save space;  photo later>




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20210313/b72bc6a7/attachment.html>