[Stoves] ***SPAM*** Patung-Patong Brick Stove , continued - part 1 - Stoves

[Ronal Larson]

List:  and Jed:

	This was getting hard to follow - so I’m breakup the dialog into 3 or 4 parts - to stick to Jed’s original purpose in writing to the list.


> On Mar 13, 2021, at 10:00 PM, Ronal Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> <SNIP>

>> Begin forwarded message:
>> 
>> From: Joshua Guinto <jed.building.bridges at gmail.com <mailto:jed.building.bridges at gmail.com>>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Seeking Advice: Technical Evaluation of the Patung-Patong Brick Stove
>> Date: March 13, 2021 at 7:47:58 PM MST
>> To: Ronal Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net <mailto:rongretlarson at comcast.net>>
>> 
>> Dear Ron and everyone

                           <snip a few lines>

>>> On Mar 10, 2021, at 9:04 PM, Joshua Guinto <jed.building.bridges at gmail.com <mailto:jed.building.bridges at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Dear Fellow Stovers
>>> 
>>> It has been awhile, please excuse me for my silence. Life and career here in the Philippines has not been gentle considering the series of disasters on top of the COVID 19 pandemic. I really "hit the ground" and am now just about getti

		<Snip several paragraphs - so as to make the messages on a single topic  (here ’stoves”)- hence the thread name change>

>>> i hereby would like to ask for a guidance on what best paths to take to have an technical evaluation of the stove... first is about it being a  COOK STOVES
>> 
>> 	[RWL4:  You have several new features here that I don’t recall in your earlier stoves;
>> 		a.  The bricks are now apparently high temperature, highly insulative.  Very expensive in the US.  Can you tell us more about these bricks - and especially is charcoal involved at all?
>> 
>> The bricks i used here are insulating. It is lighter than before. But the big lesson is..... to tweak the bricks with coats of hard and soft clay recipes. Insulating bricks get easily damaged by abrasions and impact. I had to learn to coat them with hard coats on the surface as added protection while keeping each brick light. 

			RWL4’a	Patents aren’t  worth much if you can’t protect them - but maybe your University can help there.  People reading this making one of a kind can use your patented ideas freely.  But you can’t talk too much about the details if you are going to patent.   So don’t reveal too much.
	My wife’s pottery business uses such insulative bricks - but I’ve never heard of hard coatings.  Again - congratulations.  Might be patentable.


>> And so from 25 kg of my older stove models, we were able to bring the weight to 13 kg for the smallest model. Plus the stainless steel frame make them protected and easily transportable. It is an added cost but worth the protection and ease of handling and safety.

			RWL4’a2.    The light weight wire frame seems like a new idea as well.    You show prices on your (nice) website.  What percent of those prices are due to the frame?


>> 		b.  The cookpot stand-offs seem to be quite advanced - both in the top ceramics layer and the metal.  This could be very interesting to the stove world as you perform water boiling tests with the same water amount in cookpots of different sizes and shapes (maybe with skirts and without) - using all the ways you have designed the stove top.
>> 
>> The stove top is the most in contact to the pot. The stainless metal frames allows pots of different sizes while protecting the brick stove top, It also serves as the handle during transport. 
>> 
>> The skirt can easily be installed on the sides of the hexagon metal top. 

			RWL4’b:  It’s not yet clear how the frame supports the bricks - just a star like bottom mesh maybe/.  Hard to add to the bricks?


>> 		c.   I’ve seen an extra slanted (45 degrees?) fuel container before - but not in TLUDs.   Obviously adds a bit to the cost, but allows for maybe a doubling (?) in run time.  Tell us more on why you have added this feature - and how it is received by users.
>> 
>> The slanted feeder gives ease in loading the fuel especially the granular fuels. Here in my region, we have an abundant supply of the pili (canarium ovatum) shells. This shell is the best fuel i found in all my travels around the world, better than wood chips, wood pellets or macadamia nuts. It is heavy, has the perfect shape and very cheap in my place. One kilogram of the shells gives about an hour of clean flame plus 250 grams of biochar. 
>> 
>> Another reason for the slanted hopper is for the brick plug to NOT fall off. This plug ensures that the flow of gases is correct during the gasification phase of the burn. 

			RWL4’c:  i noted in the photo you sent that this feature was not slanted.  You used to work with “holey briiquets’.  Did this evolve from that experience?  I’d like to hear how much this feature aads to sales appeal..  Also could be patentable.


>> 		d.  Can you add more on stove cost - especially comparing to the competition.  Any way to say how many months of use are needed to compete with a 3-stone stove?
>> 
>> About the fuel... the cost for an hour of GAS is Php 12.. for  CHARCOAL it is about Php 30. For the PILI SHELLS, it will be PHp 6. And if the household is diligent enough and harvest the char..... the cost will drop down to Php 3, considering the market value of the char for barbeque. 

			RWLd’1.   I found the 1000 Php is a bit more than US $20, so 10 Php = 20 cents.   I think you can claim much better than PHp3, when you consider the lifetime benefits in the soil.  I wouldn’t compare to barbecue char.

>> The cost of the stove is Php 1,350 for the small model. The payback period is about 48 days. The next bigger model is Php 4,500. Lifetime is about 5 years. 

			RWLd’2:    1350 is about US $27 - a bargain for the 45 day number.   320 days left in the year is pure profit.   And more years to come.

>> PHp 1,350 is prohibitive to most of the poor households which i would have wanted to have this stove. I sense they could only afford Php 500 or less to buy a stove up front. 

			RWLd’3:    We need to have more list discussion on this topic.   Pay it off by the month/?  Kevin McNeal is working with a payback in char units over time. (counting in bags or kilos.)

>> A ;cheap charcoal stove is about Php 85 and lasts for three months before their breakdown. 

			RWLd’4:   Can you send a photo?   Ceramic?  85 goes to US $1.70.  
		Using char for cooking has to be stamped out.  How is that char made near you?  Does the Philippine government have anything going on carbon dioxide removal?

Ron



>>> 	and second being a CHARCOAL MAKING STOVE.

		RWL:  Char in response. #2
		

>>> the third is about the cost effectiveness of this stove for a household in terms of fuel savings. 
>>> 
>>>        RWL:   and cost effectiveness will be my #3.


Jed:  I continue to be impressed.   Some very important advances above.

Ron


>> Joshua B. Guinto
>> Specialist, Appropriate Technology
>> MSc Management of AgroEcological Knowledge and Social Change (MAKS)
>> Wageningen University, The Netherlands 2006 to 2008
>> Recipient, International Fellowships Programme  Award (IFP) 2005
>> Ford Foundation 

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