[Stoves] ***SPAM*** Patung-Patong Brick Stove , continued - part 2- charcoal making

[Ronal Larson]

List, cc Jed

	This is a second response to a message from Jed Guinto on 13 March.   
		I responded last night to his response re his first set of questions on a aew stove of his own design.  That had a similar thread name - saying at end:  Part 1 -  stoves.

	I hope others will join in.on both.

>> From: Joshua Guinto <jed.building.bridges at gmail.com <mailto:jed.building.bridges at gmail.com>>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Seeking Advice: Technical Evaluation of the Patung-Patong Brick Stove
>> Date: March 13, 2021 at 7:47:58 PM MST
>> To: Ronal Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net <mailto:rongretlarson at comcast.net>>
>> 
>> Dear Ron and everyone
>> 
>> My reply is in between your lines.

			,<,snip my response on 15th.>


>>> and second being a CHARCOAL MAKING STOVE.
>> 
>> 	[RWL5:  a.  You are now ahead of most of us in that world.
>> 		b.   Being now in academia - you have a great chance to get everything about this stove done through student-designed testing - both in the lab and in user’s homes.  AND especially with char in the fields - or classroom pot tests.
>> 
>> Exactly. I'm thinking about students to go into thesis to go into collaborative research. Which is why im now into a search about the TEST PROTOCOLS. There is so much discussion in the stove list serve and i'm not sure which path to take. 
;  
		[RWL5b’-1:   I think it safe to say there is now one international standard.  Took a long time to reach consensus.  
		A good first introduction is at; 
			https://cfpub.epa.gov/si/si_public_record_report.cfm?Lab=NRMRL&dirEntryId=345165 <https://cfpub.epa.gov/si/si_public_record_report.cfm?Lab=NRMRL&dirEntryId=345165>	
	    on slide #4,  you’ll see what you mainly want
			–ISO TR 19867-3:2018, Voluntary performance targets
	 
		Being char-maker,ss your stoves don’t have to stop and start. 	You can start  now by trying to boil away as much water was possible in a typical local pot holding 5 liters of water, with your stove fully loaded - keeping trck with a clock of everything that is happening - time to boil,  fuel input, char out, water weight loss.    Do three times. Tell us whaat you got and we caan give you a tier rating - hopefully a five.  By that time you’ll probably have found a best way to get the really hard to measure emissions.

	Unless you can find a better alternative, your library will have to get the full standard for part 3, and the other parts 1, 2, and 4 (not yet complete).  	Can anyone suggest a way for Jed to get all gratis?


>> Another issue is about PATENTS. I'm now in the academic community. Patents and copyrights are by words. The Intellectual Property Office is prodding me to protect my designs through patents and copyrights lest there are those who will grab them away from me. And this actually happened to the works of other professors in the past. 

>> Patents as the Philippine law provides still gives me preferential options to give away designs for free to persons/entities i choose or demand payments in form of royalties from others. 
>> 
>> What do you think? 

				[RWL5b’-2:    In Part 1,  I suggested that several of your innovations might be paintable - as I hed not seen them before.    But that is only the beginning step.   I am for sure not recommending that you spend your own funds in trying to get a patent.   You can keep others from patenting it by talking openly about your ideas.   This sotr of dialog can be used to  keep others from patenting your ideas   
		What do others recommend?


>> 		c.  You should explore how long you can be making char by adding extra fuel from the top (and side?)
>> 
>> I  tried adding fuel to the top. But the fuel bursts into dirty flames in about ten seconds.  To the sides is better because the new flame is not so dirty/ this it is the third reason for the BRICK PLUG. 

				[RWL5c’:   We’ve heard that a lot.   It appears that adding aa very small amount, may be acceptable..  I was hoping you might have a different experience - with the side entry.  This list should explore on why that type of addition is better.



>> 		d.  I’ve never seen any data on a stove operating for as long as possible as a TLUD, then removing the char quickly and then go into a rocket mode to finish up (leaving some hot char that is itself already combusting).  Can aa user do this changeover in a minute?  Having such non-charcoal making mode could help sell more stoves - while still retaining 90 (?) % of the initial char - when needed..
>> 
>> Yes, this mode works fine One hour in the gasifier mode with the pili shells, then drop the hot char in a snuffer can/kettle. And then proceed in a rocket mode while the stoves is still very hot. 
>> 
>> One big lesson i also learned. Better to fully load the entire feeder with wood  sticks but poking partly into the fire chamber. This achieves one important thiing the entry of cold air from the side is minimized while mimicking the gasifier mode to some extent thus cleaner flame.  

			 	RWL5d’:    I don’t recall anyone else doing this,  so it should be a good selling point.  Anyone else done this?   There are designs where the chair is dumped out routinely and cooking resumes on the char.  Cooking on the stoves after char its produced is possible of course - but doesn’t make sense to me.

				Other:  No need to go into all the positive things one could say about the advantages of TLUDs over Rockets.  To me, the chance to make money while cooking greatly outweighs the disadvantage of batch stoves.  A disadvantage that can be avoided with multiple stoves, larger stoves, and experience - as well aa the topics discussed above..  Second main reason is need to take carbon out of the atmosphere.

			I hope others can explain why Rockets should be preferred over TLUDs.

				and support or not this dialog about a TLUD with many apparently novel features.

		
		Next -  part 3 (Jed’s 3rd question on ) and then part 4 (everything else deserving more discussion,)

Ron





			<snip.>


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