[Stoves] Dung Rocket Stove - Failed Test

Sun Jan 15 15:49:46 CST 2023

Crispin,

In high Mongolia, no crops or vegetables are grown so there is no need for
fertilizer or biochar as a soil amendment, correct?

On Sun, Jan 15, 2023 at 4:13 PM Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
crispinpigott at outlook.com> wrote:

> Dear Ron and All
>
>
>
> I will consolidate several message responses.
>
>
>
> > a.  We’d rather not cook with dung at all  (agreeing with Paul Olivier
> below).
>
>
>
> There are a number of places where dung is used because it can he accessed
> “in house” for example in a crowded urban area without access to purchased
> fuels.  The cow does the energy collection during the day and provides it
> free to the family.  It is not only where alternative fuels are absent.  If
> it is free and convenient, people use it.
>
>
>
> Just because fuel is free doesn’t mean it has to be burned badly.  Just
> because a fuel is burned badly doesn’t mean it cannot be burned cleanly.
> Just because a fuel could make biochar doesn’t mean it is wise to do so.
>
>
>
> > b.  We think making char apt to be cleaner and good for soil, but carbon
> dioxide removal (CDR) may also mean one can make money while cooking.
> Might also save time for the cooks.
>
>
>
> Many people have no soil, and cannot grow anything in the soil they have
> access to.  This is generally true for all high altitude locations where
> dung burning in a rural area is widespread. Such areas include the whole of
> the northern and southern Himalayas.  In the Pamir of Tajikistan, if you do
> not burn dung, you die.
>
>
>
> > c.   We are unaware of any char-making stoves using dung (because dung
> is so non-dense - need a lot more volume.)
>
>
>
> This is a good point. If you have to collect and (usually) process the
> dung, the resulting fuel is not very energy dense, meaning available
> MJ/kg.  Plus it is not dense kg/m3.  If you are creating char from a low
> energy fuel, it is not wise in terms of effort.  If you only get 1/3 of the
> available energy because the rest is tied up in char, you will have to
> collect 3 times are much fuel.  Who is going to do that?!  People are not
> crazy.
>
>
>
> > 5.  Other:
>
>                    a.  Anyone think that the present users of
> dung-burning stoves in Mongolia and similar would surely or not-at-all
> welcome such a stove?
>
>
>
> The photo Paul sent of a “dung burning stove” shown a box with a chimney –
> typical of all Mongolian local baseline products.  There is nothing
> “dung-burning” about the design.  They are typically made from 2mm steel
> sheet and are good space heaters – with wood or dung.  As wood burners they
> tend to be pretty good, but they are terrible coal stoves which is the
> preferred urban fuel.
>
>
>
> A reasonably designed dung-burning stove such as the KG2.5
> <http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/library/Stoves/Kyrgyzstan/KG%20Model2.5/>
> produced in Bishkek has staged combustion and the ability to cook at least
> two pots – water heating being a major need.  Stoves, when not cooking, are
> often heating 3 containers of water.
>
>
>
> > Anyone able to confirm those are from horses?  Maybe Yaks?   If
> guaranteed to be horse dung, then we don’t need zoos.
>
>
>
> Dung source depends of geography and climate.   Yaks can live on very poor
> grasses (like bison) and excrete modestly sized pellets. Bigger than a
> horse (“road apples”) and much smaller than cattle.  In the high cold
> regions, dung dries rapidly however it is often collected, wetted, and
> mixed with chopped grass, for instance in southern Tibet.  The reason is an
> absolute scarcity of fuel.  If they were to make char, they would freeze
> due to lack of energy.
>
>
>
> > There is not much wood to burn in Mongolia.
>
>
>
> There is a massive amount of wood to burn in Mongolia, depending on where
> you are of course.  North of Ulaanbaatar there are huge forests.  The
> sawmills create enormous piles of sawdust which, when the market conditions
> are right, is made into wood pellets or briquettes.  But only some.  Most
> is too far away to complete with chopped and split wood.  I estimate thar
> the population of UB burns more than 100,000 tons of wood each winter.  It
> is a preferred summer time fuel, where the stove is removed to be used
> outdoors (because it overheats the yurt).
>
>
>
> > Wow. 2 billion dung-stove  users!.  I had not been paying attention to
> the large number combusting dung  -  and do agree we should be trying to
> improve its combustion in cookstoves.   It might even be possible to make
> them fairly clean.
>
>
>
> Of course it is.  Burning low density fuels (not only dung) requires
> particular air control and grate bar spacing.  It has very light ash so if
> the fuel is burned completely, it has rather a lot of fine white ash which
> can be lofted easily.  That needs consideration.
>
>
>
> >But I think it much better to promote a switch to charcoal-making
> stoves.   Not just for dung, but for every fuel.
>
>
>
> It is OK to think that, just don’t expect people to act on it.  Doing so
> for most dung burning region would impose a huge additional labour-burden
> on women, in particular.  Gender rights advocates should rise up as One to
> protest any plan to enforce dung-burning char-making stoves on anyone.
>
>
>
> >And we need urgently to be practicing carbon dioxide removal (CDR).
>
>
>
> You want the energy-poorest people in the world to get involved in CO2
> removal?  How more anti-poor can a policy possibly be?
>
>
>
> > 3.   Re TLUDs and dung, I found TLIUD support in this 2014 non-fee
> paper:    A Biochar-producing, Dung-burning Cookstove for Humanitarian
> Purposes
>
>
>
> “Humanitarian”? How more anti-poor could a proposal be?  Go to southern
> Tibet.  Altitude, 16,000 ft.  Nothing except grass and the occasional
> rhododendron can grow there. Either you live on animal products, or
> imported food, or you die.  No one is going to waste 2/3 of their available
> energy supply to appease rich, Western climate fanatics.
>
>
>
> > Cooking with dung is exceptionally dirty.
>
> Nonsense.  Cooking with a stove not designed for dung is “dirty”.
>
>
>
> > I'm working with a group that is trying to slow glacial melt in the
> Himalayas.
>
>
>
> Then develop a clear burning stove combustor, and while you are at it,
> make it more thermally efficient so the mass needed per winter is reduced
> by, say, 50%.
>
>
>
> >And I agree that it would be best if everyone used cooking methods that
> are cleaner than burning dung.
>
>
>
> I pressure you have never seen a good dung burning stoves.  There is no
> “dirt” in dung. There is no “smoke”.  Smoke is produced by stoves not
> burning it properly.
>
>
>
> >Dung is not a good fuel.
>
>
>
> Second opinion: Dung is a good fuel. Most stoves that burn it (not all)
> are absolute crap.
>
>
>
> >Today we tested a dung rocket stove.  I'm a little surprised that the
> test was a failure.  Can anyone suggest changes?
>
>
>
> This is a big ask. An whole theory of combustion is needed to address the
> matter.  The consolidation of the dung into a large single mass cause a lot
> of the problems. That is not how to prepare dung.  A great deal can be
> learned by observing people who use it.  Here is a Tajik dung burning stove
> loaded before ignition:
>
>
>
>
>
> Note the large pieces of wood used to establish a hot coal bed.  Once it
> is going well, the fire will be pushed to the far end of the chamber and
> new fuel added at the door. No fuel is placed on top of a going fire.  This
> arrangement is very clean burning.
>
>
>
> This lady was involved in stove promotion for three years before seeing
> this simple, locally designed dung burning stove.  She tried it and said it
> was the first time in three years of promoting ISC that the “was excited”
> about a stove.
>
>
>
>
>
> The combustion is at the back under the big pot.  The water warming is at
> the front, not at the back, and it was very clean burning – even though at
> this time the design was primitive.  The KG2.5 came after 3 years of
> further development and is significantly more efficient, cleaner burning
> and burns for far longer on a load of fuel.
>
>
>
> This is dung preparation in rural Tajikistan:
>
>
>
> This is one of several typical preparations. The diameter is about 5
> inches.  The format suits poorly designed stoves with high excess air.
>
>
>
> This is Umedjani Kurbon, aged 12, who is the operator of the CNC plasma
> cutter.  He got the responsibility because he could read and do simple
> arithmetic.  He had never received any instructions on how to use it
> properly.  If you zoom the screen, you can see the standard shapes from
> which to select a cut.  They owned no computer on which they could to
> prepare whole parts. This gives you an idea of the conditions in which
> producers live.
>
>
>
> >The fire was never strong and there was a lot of smoke.
>
>
>
> This is not surprising because, with good intentions, you were guessing.
> Now you know several things not to do. It might have done better if it have
> been dried at 105 C for a couple of days.  But I doubt it. It has to have a
> certain surface-to-volume ratio and controlled primary air to burn
> cleanly.  The total surface burning at any one time sets the firepower.  If
> you break each piece of fuel in half, it will increase the gasification
> (devolatilisation) rate.  A certain primary air flow is required for each
> surface area burn, and a separate secondary air flow is needed that relates
> to that gasification rate. You should aim for an oxygen concentration of
> 10% in the exhaust.
>
>
>
> Good luck!
>
> Crispin
>
>
>
>
>
> Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
>
>
>
> New Dawn Engineering Inc.
>
> P.O. Box 3
>
> Alberta Beach, Alberta
>
> Canada T0E 0A0
>
> www.newdawnengineering.com
>
>
>
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>
>
>
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>
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>
>
>
> Email: crispinpigott at outlook.com
>
> crispin at newdawnengineering.com
>
>
>
>
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