[Stoves] ***SPAM*** Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 162, Issue 8

[Norbert Senf]

There was an interesting result with masonry heaters in the 1980's.
There was a design where there were 2 exits near the firebox ceiling, one
on the left and one on the right.
They were followed by heat exchange channels.
When you fired the heater, the hot gases would pick one side and favour it.
So therefore, sometimes the heater would be warmer on the left side and
other times (other firings) it would
be warmer on right side. Exactly in agreement with Groume Grjimailo ;-)

On Wed, Feb 28, 2024 at 1:05 PM <stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org>
wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. What do the AIs ChatGPT3.5 and Perplexity know about the
>       upward and downward flow of air? (Julien Winter)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2024 11:50:45 -0500
> From: Julien Winter <winter.julien at gmail.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>         <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: [Stoves] What do the AIs ChatGPT3.5 and Perplexity know about
>         the upward and downward flow of air?
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CALv4xTwrLcxNmstGMyqq9VxfMLz3ZAU22z_eUF1Cb56yV1dQjw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi folks;
>
> Just for sport, I thought I would ask ChatGPD 3.5 and Perplexity a question
> about air flow:
>
> QUESTION: "How do the turbulent vs. laminar characteristics differ between
> downward flowing and upward flowing air?"
>
> Both AIs didn't give a good answer on the first try and required a
> follow-up clarification. Perplexity though I was asking for definitions of
> turbulent and laminar flow, and ChatGPT thought that downward-flowing air
> would bump into more obstacles.
>
> So, having sorted them out, this is what they said.
>
> ChatGPT ========================
>
> Certainly! When comparing the turbulent and laminar characteristics of
> downward flowing and upward flowing air without any obstacles obstructing
> the flow, the differences lie primarily in the effects of buoyancy and
> stability. Here's a revised comparison:
>
> Downward Flowing Air:
>
>
>    - Turbulence: Even without obstacles, downward flowing air can still
>    exhibit turbulence, especially if it encounters changes in temperature,
>    pressure, or wind shear. As the air descends, it may encounter different
>    atmospheric layers with varying properties, leading to turbulence.
>    - Laminar Flow: In ideal conditions with minimal atmospheric
>    disturbances, downward flowing air can exhibit more laminar flow
> compared
>    to upward flowing air. However, the presence of any instabilities or
>    variations in the atmospheric properties can disrupt laminar flow.
>
>
> Upward Flowing Air:
>
>
>    - Turbulence: Upward flowing air tends to be less turbulent compared to
>    downward flowing air, especially in the absence of obstacles. The
> buoyancy
>    force driving the air upward can result in a smoother, more coherent
> flow
>    pattern. However, localized turbulence can still develop due to
> convective
>    processes or changes in atmospheric conditions.
>    - Laminar Flow: Upward flowing air has a greater tendency to maintain
>    laminar flow in the absence of obstacles and under stable atmospheric
>    conditions. Buoyancy-driven flow, such as in thermals or updrafts, can
>    promote more organized, laminar flow patterns.
>
>
> In summary, in the absence of obstacles, downward flowing air can still
> exhibit turbulence due to the potential for encountering atmospheric
> disturbances, while upward flowing air tends to be smoother and more
> conducive to laminar flow, driven by buoyancy effects. However, both
> directions of flow can experience variations depending on the stability and
> properties of the surrounding atmosphere.
>
>
> Perplexity =====================================
>
> When comparing upward and downward flows of air in terms of turbulent and
> laminar characteristics, the differences lie in the behavior of the
> airflow:
>
> Upward Flow:
>
>
>    - Turbulent Characteristics: Upward turbulent airflow involves irregular
>    and chaotic movement with unpredictable fluctuations, mixing of fluid
>    particles, swirling vortices, rapid changes in velocity, and pressure
>    fluctuations.
>    - Application: Commonly observed in scenarios like smoke coming out of
>    exhaust pipes or turbulence in aircraft, upward turbulent flow is
>    influenced by irregularities or obstructions in the airflow path.
>
>
> Downward Flow:
>
>
>    - Laminar Characteristics: Downward laminar airflow is characterized by
>    smooth and streamlined movement where fluid layers move parallel to each
>    other without mixing or disruption.
>    - Observation: In downward laminar flow, the fluid flows in a straight
>    line with low flow rate and constant properties like velocity and
> pressure.
>
>
> In essence, upward flowing air tends to exhibit turbulent characteristics
> with chaotic movement and mixing of particles, while downward flowing air
> typically displays laminar behavior with smooth and orderly movement of
> fluid layers. These distinctions are crucial for various applications where
> understanding airflow dynamics is essential for system design and
> efficiency.
>
> ==================================
>
> With some iterative, leading or loaded questions, it might be possible to
> push the AIs into the answer you want.  But that is a human training the
> AI, not the AI training the human.
>
> Niether AI seems to have read the book Norbert suggested: Groume-Grjikailo
> in his 1923 book "The Flow of Gases in Furnaces"  on pages 88 - 91.
>
> https://archive.org/details/TheFlowOfGasesInFurnaces/page/n107/mode/2up?view=theater
>
>
> It is also interesting to see how it is good to use several AIs, because
> they give different answers.
>
> Have a whack at it and see what you get.
>
> Cheers,
> Julien.
>
> --
> Julien Winter
> Cobourg, ON, CANADA
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> End of Stoves Digest, Vol 162, Issue 8
> **************************************
>


-- 
Norbert Senf
Masonry Stove Builders
25 Brouse Road, RR 5
Shawville Québec J0X 2Y0
819.647.5092
www.heatkit.com
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