[Gasification] Continuing
Thomas Reed
tombreed2010 at gmail.com
Wed Jul 20 14:27:40 CDT 2011
Dear Phil and all
Phil seems concerned about getting the "right" bacteria. My impression is "if you vuildmit, they will come".
Expert opinion needed.
Tom Reed
Dr Thomas B Reed
President, The Biomass Energy Foundation
www.Woodgas.com
On Jul 20, 2011, at 12:55 PM, phillip manske <pdmanske at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> This pathway should be the most simple so its likely a good place to
> start. I'm not certain what to do first. I liked shopping for
> reactors and why not? Shopping is fun. I was unaware there are large
> (1000 gal) glass lined reactors.
>
> Where to start? In my clumsy manner I say get a microscope and then
> the strain ($250 from ATC)
>
> Look at the freeze dried 'crobes under the scope. Should see shoe
> leather plus the "meat" packing that comes with the strain.
> Re animate using only distilled water and examine under scope
> Re animate and add nutrients and look under scope
> See how long that batch lasts
>
> Re animate using nutrients plus extra feed like fructose or yeast extract
> This should be enough to keep the culture alive for a regular
> lifetime of the 'crobes.
>
> PV, is this close? Are my techniques sound?
>
> My technique is a combination practical effort plus me releaning lab techniques.
>
> I'm not clear on how to do census. You are supposed to sample from
> the quadrants and the center. Anaerobes are supposed to collect away
> from O2 and that means the bottom of the vessel.
>
> I don't know how long that nutrient will last. The CO and CO2 feed is
> like making the 'crobes live on bananas. Bananas are healthy but its
> not nutritious enough for life, hence the vitamin pill like nutrients
> that are necessary. The calories come from the gases, the vitamins
> come from the nutrients.
>
>
> I wanted to hire someone to do this because I'm just gonna bash around
> int he early stages and then likely later on too. Maybe i can get by
> with a consult.
>
> I can't do mcuh until I get my libary card, there is mcuh more
> material to read than what I have collected so far.
>
> Phillip
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 11:53 AM, Pannirselvam P.V <pannirbr at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Dea Dr T.Reed and Philip
>> The CO2 and CO from producer gas can provide acetate, thus ,
>> there is no need for carbohyrates , this low quality producer gas can be
>> upgraded. The system is more solid gas tricking filter bio reactor .
>> Dr Thomas is correct that the mixed bacteria systems can , at room
>> temperature solid liquid slurry in know biodigster system the reaction
>> he wrote , but let input of CH2O , more CO and CO2 , via adoptation need
>> to be done for gas solid biodigestors
>>
>> Unlike conventional bio digestor, there is a need to make
>> the correct mixed bacteria that can make acetate (acids) from gas , then
>> methane is synthesised by hydrogen bacteria via CO water shift to
>> hydrogen, which readily combine with CO to make methane , as well as
>> CO2.( At atm pressure , low temperature ), wher as very high temp used to
>> make co shift via thermoconversion system
>> The problems with this new system , unlike conventional biodidestor, is
>> the bacter cell growth and viability without carbohydrate (CH20) ,
>> unlike the system which Dr.Reed has correctly wrotefor the biogas
>> production where ther is also parelel auto catalytics bacteria
>> reproducation .Philip Manske here in his recent post has reported thatv the
>> CO make bacterial cell gorwth and viabilit possible .This is very
>> positive good results .Biodigestor bacterial catatyst has the problem
>> of useful active life time ,The biocatalysts , microbes ,do not have
>> unlimited life time of activity .Need to be replaced .This is considered to
>> be negative point , but can be managed, with economic loss too
>> Instead of separating and upgrading SNG obtained from low quality
>> producer gas via bioprocessos , the direct use of this for charcoal
>> gasification can give biochar and high quality syngas for metanol or
>> ethanol via bio or thermoconversion .
>> Thus small biorefineray of coupled biotherm process , origionally
>> patended by IGT, USA can be adopted and make posible for CHP energy
>> production and methanol Co production as small grid based biorefinery.
>>
>> Dr Reed , can be consider as origional thinker and father who had long
>> time vision of sustainable syngas, methanol frrom biomass and bioenergy
>> power .His long time dream can be reality as compared to biomass ethanol
>> projects sustainabilty of several waste biomass residues upgrading into
>> biopower .As the gasoline , ethanol ,methanol can be well mixed , can go
>> well more sustainable transportation fuel ate present and future
>> For the same yet proven technology are needed , Integrated However
>> the Biotherm process ,CHP and methanol are complex system ,need good
>> system design and engineering work from diversified experts, but not as
>> such as big petro refinery projects
>> Our lists do have this diversity , dynamic members , thus make possible to
>> compare known technology , innovate new one do , get help from experts from
>> this list made posible by TOM
>> Some off topics are good , but need not exceed the main topics too
>> Your sincerely
>> Panirselvam P.V
>> Brazil
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 5:51 PM, Thomas Reed <tombreed2010 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Phillip
>>>
>>> The power generation sounds interesting.
>>>
>>> What is the feed sock for the digester? Carbohydrates?
>>>
>>> 2 CH2O ===> CH4 + H2O.
>>>
>>> A dr, carve in India has built a small digestor that produces all the
>>> methane needed to cook the meals.
>>>
>>> I suppose a larger digester could supply the electric power too.
>>>
>>> Keep talking...
>>>
>>> Tom Reed
>>>
>>> Dr Thomas B Reed
>>> President, The Biomass Energy Foundation
>>> www.Woodgas.com
>>>
>>> On Jul 19, 2011, at 12:03 PM, phillip manske <pdmanske at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Tom,
>>>>
>>>> Its good to hear from you. I taught ESL in Korea for six years and
>>>> instead of coming back to the US directly, I went to Kiev and stayed
>>>> in East Europe for year. I went to Moldova, Poland and Romania too.
>>>> I lived on the money I saved while in Korea and my Fed government
>>>> pension. I was poor there and I didn't do much but work on a website
>>>> that was inspired by my Fed time. I made a large Freedom of
>>>> Information Act program and I did most of the work in cafe's with free
>>>> WiFi.
>>>>
>>>> Melitopol is in the Russian half of Ukraine, I generally like the
>>>> Ukies better than the Russians but I think the women are more
>>>> attractive. I've been to Melitopol twice already. No one visits
>>>> Melitopol, its kind of a hole. Anna is an ethnic Russian living in
>>>> Ukraine.
>>>>
>>>> http://khersongirls.com - that is the agency I recommend. Consider
>>>> all of the others as scams. I've met the owner and I've been to the
>>>> office many times.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you want to get involved with my "Gold" project you are welcome.
>>>> Its gonna take some money but not much. My investor advisor says to
>>>> make the lab reactor and then the GEK scale reactor. I think the lab
>>>> reactor will look like this...
>>>>
>>>> http://www.chemglass.com/product_view.asp?pnr=CLS-1404
>>>>
>>>> I don't want to appear as a Johnny come lately into biofuels but it
>>>> kind of looks that way. I was an electrican in the navy a long time
>>>> ago and I said I'd return to power generation if the things were
>>>> right. The concept is complicated, the practice is easy. Once the
>>>> gens run, there is no work to do. You just need to check the engines
>>>> twice a day and that takes 20 minutes max each time. You really have
>>>> the whole day off for the next fifteen years if you get a contract.
>>>>
>>>> That's whats up.
>>>>
>>>> Phillip
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 7:31 AM, Thomas Reed <tombreed2010 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> So, do you have an office in Melitopol? Looks like it's close to the
>>>>> black sea.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom
>>>>>
>>>>> Dr Thomas B Reed
>>>>> President, The Biomass Energy Foundation
>>>>> www.Woodgas.com
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 18, 2011, at 10:25 PM, phillip manske <pdmanske at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Dr. Reed,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for the concern. I had to pay bills for two months and then I
>>>>>> needed some cash so I can go marriage agency dates in Ukraine. I
>>>>>> lived in Ukraine for a year so I kinda know whats up. I found a woman
>>>>>> there that likes me. She looks like Meagan Fox but she has larger
>>>>>> breasts. She sells cosmetics and lives in Melitopol. I work next to
>>>>>> a corporate lake and the lake is feed by storm run off. The lake has
>>>>>> some good wildlife and I have taken to turtle rescue when the chelons
>>>>>> get stuck in the drainage pipes. I got ten already. I have a snapper
>>>>>> hatchling and hand sized softshell on a shelf by my desk.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's pretty cool Phil but it has nothing to with biomass.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't talk about gasifiers here because I don't know Jack.
>>>>>> Sometimes you just need to shut up and listen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yea so I decided I should read about the matter.
>>>>>> This book is great.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.amazon.com/Transportation-Biofuels-Production-Biodiesel-Chemistry/dp/1849730431
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I got an eCopy if you want to see the relevant material. The methane
>>>>>> part looks way doable and in fact I'm slowly working on that. I found
>>>>>> sciencedirect.com which has a great index and all of the papers on the
>>>>>> matter are availalbe for free at the uni library but I don't have my
>>>>>> Indiana drives lic/ID yet so its another two weeks. The papers come
>>>>>> to $4500 if I have to pay.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wrote an executive summary for someone at GoBig and I after I sent
>>>>>> that off they asked for an executive summary and asked a few other
>>>>>> questions. I made a good post at GEK and I got ass kissy with Mr.
>>>>>> Mason trying to amend my earlier offences.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whats up with you Tom?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Warmest Regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Phillip
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Phillip Manske
>>>>>> 195 w Puetz Rd h-114
>>>>>> Oak Creek WI, 53154
>>>>>> pmanske at afuels.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alchemy Fuels Executive Summary
>>>>>> Saturday, July 16, 2011
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Energy Policy Act of 2005 has mandated that investor owned
>>>>>> utilities must provide a certain amount of the energy they provide
>>>>>> must be sourced from renewable sources. This amount has been
>>>>>> regulated to grow both now and in the future. To date, wind and solar
>>>>>> sources have been providing most of this energy while biomass sourced
>>>>>> energy has lagged. Utilities have been rejecting new applications for
>>>>>> wind and solar energies while courting biomass providers as many slots
>>>>>> are still open. Alchemy has determined a course to make low cost
>>>>>> biofuel to fulfill these requirements is a realistic and profitable
>>>>>> goal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> After reviewing scientific literature on the matter I, (working as
>>>>>> Alchemy Fuels) have decided that a two stage reactor designed to make
>>>>>> methane is the most efficient route to a biofuel called “biogas”.
>>>>>> This method was developed early in the biofuels research efforts and
>>>>>> then abandoned in favor of ethanol and other more lucrative
>>>>>> transportation fuels. Methane is a well founded and well functioning
>>>>>> fuel for generators designed to work with natural gas. This process
>>>>>> is well reviewed and appreciated by the scientific community for its
>>>>>> ease use and lack of exotic requirements. It can be described as a
>>>>>> methane digester without the required tons of manure feedstock. The
>>>>>> research was pioneered by a scientist named Gaddy who founded a
>>>>>> company called BRI. The process is referred as the microbial catalyst
>>>>>> cellulosic fuel pathway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The process uses the output from gasifiers that use wood mass as a
>>>>>> feedstock. A handful of gases are provided by the gasifier with the
>>>>>> most important being carbon monoxide and the lesser gases being
>>>>>> hydrogen, carbon dioxide and methane. All of the gasses are used in
>>>>>> the process. The first stage of the process uses a bacteria called p.
>>>>>> productus that uses the CO for growth and CO2 for the production of
>>>>>> acetate which is the feedstock for the second and final stage where a
>>>>>> bacteria called m. barkeri uses the acetate and hydrogen to make
>>>>>> methane. Methane, unlike ethanol , does not need distilling which
>>>>>> saves considerable effort, energy and money.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The market for the gas or gas use comes from the aforementioned lack
>>>>>> of biomass energy providers. Contract length is from 10 – 20 years,
>>>>>> amount of sale is typically 800 kilo watts per hour and the
>>>>>> compensation is from $.10 - $.15 per Kw hour. Providers are
>>>>>> typically allowed to provide 24 hours a day. Demand may vary but
>>>>>> demand is typically strong. Biogas contracts are generally designed
>>>>>> for methane digesters but this type of process meets the legal
>>>>>> definition of biogas even without the $1 million digester.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is a niche market but it can provide excellent returns and a
>>>>>> number of contracts can be signed simultaneously. Sales are assured,
>>>>>> no distribution network is required. Plants like this operate at a
>>>>>> technician level and not an engineer or scientist level. There are
>>>>>> few critical points that may induce failure. The required insurance
>>>>>> is difficult to get but I have found a provider and at least one work
>>>>>> around method.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Plants should be located near the biomass source to save money on
>>>>>> transportation and when the gas is made, it can be shipped at much
>>>>>> less expense to the generating facilities . The plants will be
>>>>>> filled with wood biomass, gasifiers and vats that look like
>>>>>> microbrewery vats.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Being averse to large expenditures, I recommend a modest approach to
>>>>>> first make a five gallon reactor using bottled gas, then a system
>>>>>> using a small gasifier and then finally a system scaled to produce
>>>>>> fuel at the rate to meet the 800 kwh limit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The described process above is worth study and investment. The
>>>>>> science is sound, the investment and risk is small, operating overhead
>>>>>> is very low and sales are guaranteed. It appears margins should be
>>>>>> very wide unlike typical margins that are available to investors.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Questions may be directed to me at the email address above.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Phillip Manske
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 9:46 PM, Thomas Reed <tombreed2010 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>> I haven't heard your name for.a decade or so. What cooks in biomass?
>>>>>>> Tom Reed
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dr Thomas B Reed
>>>>>>> President, The Biomass Energy Foundation
>>>>>>> www.Woodgas.com
>>>>>>> On Jul 18, 2011, at 7:04 PM,
>>>>>>> "pbadger at bioenergyupdate.com"<pbadger at bioenergyupdate.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless
>>>>>>>
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>>
>> --
>> ************************************************
>> P.V.PANNIRSELVAM
>> ASSOCIATE . PROF.
>> Research Group ,GPEC, Coordinator
>> Computer aided Cost engineering
>>
>> DEQ – Departamento de Engenharia Química
>> CT – Centro de Tecnologia / UFRN, Lagoa Nova – Natal/RN
>> Campus Universitário. CEP: 59.072-970
>> North East,Brazil
>> *******************************************
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