[Gasification] back to gasification

Pannirselvam P.V pannirbr at gmail.com
Wed Jun 1 18:37:44 CDT 2011


Dear list members
   Instead direct cooling with steam , it is posible use indirect cooling
later use  hudrogen rich  methane recycle  gqs reducing steam
consumption!There  are several patents  to make the process simple

Pannirselvam P V
BRAZIL
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 7:18 PM, Jim Leach <jleach at danatech.net> wrote:

>  Thanks Florian,
>
> If one wants to burn the product gas in an engine or a gas turbine you have
> to cool and clean the gas anyway.  So dropping the temperature would be a
> part of the tar removal process and would occur anyway.  Adding water is not
> good because the product gas must be well below the dew point for the
> combustion device.  So it you put it in for methanation, you will have to
> take it out later. But what I was interested in was simply converting the H2
> to CH4, because engines (including GT's) don't really like H2 (it burns too
> fast).  Reciprocating engines in particular, would much prefer a steady diet
> of CH4.  But I think I understand from your answer is that it is not worth
> it.  Unfortunately, an answer I was expecting.
>
> *JAMES T. LEACH, P.E.*
> *President*
> **
> *DANA TECHNOLOGIES, INC.*
> *32242 Paseo Adelanto, Suite D*
> *San Juan Capistrano, CA 92675*
> *Ph 949-496-6516*
> *Fx 949-496-8133*
> *Mobile 949-933-6518*
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:
> gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] *On Behalf Of *Florian
> Nagel
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 01, 2011 2:52 PM
>
> *To:* 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'
> *Subject:* Re: [Gasification] back to gasification
>
>  Hi James
>
>
>
> I cant comment on the cost of the methanation step but I can comment on
> your idea regarding a methanation step as fuel upgrade in a gasification-
> and gas engine-based power plant. I did my thesis together with Jan at PSI
> working on the combination of high-temperature fuel cells with woody biomass
> gasifiers: http://e-collection.library.ethz.ch/view/eth:41553 . Hi Jan, I
> m still on that list as you see :D
>
>
>
> Methanation is an exothermic process that yields the highest methane
> concentration in the product gas when kept around 400C process temperature.
> Hence, you ll first have to cool your syngas down to 400C. Depending on your
> gasifier type and syngas composition, you might get into carbon deposition
> problems (Boudouard reaction for example where 2 CO molecules decompose into
> carbon and carbon dioxide). You can overcome these problems by injecting
> steam into your syngas (which will cool it down at the same time..) which
> you will also need to increase your hydrogen atom content in a way that
> allows methanation. Then you can take it from there and produce methane.
>
>
>
> Problem I see is that by introducing water into your fuel gas, you already
> lower its heating value. This results in a lower combustion temperature in
> your gas engine. Gas engines are limited by the Carnot efficiency rule that
> clearly states that the efficiency of a combustion engine increases with the
> difference between the temperature of the hot compressed combusted gas and
> the temperature of the expanded exhaust gas. Hence, the efficiency of a
> combustion engine running on humidized syngas should definitely be lower
> than running on unhumidified syngas. Next problem is, during the methanation
> you have to cool the reactor. Thus you are again reducing the energy content
> of your syngas or by that time synthetic methane (relative to the energy
> content of the initial feedstock). The energy you extract from the
> methanation process is in form of low-temperature heat (400C) which you can
> hardly use economically to produce electricity with a steam cycle. Once you
> have your synthetic methane gas mixture, you ll have to reduce the high
> water content of it to not run into above mentioned efficiency issues of the
> combustion engine. This can only be done by cooling the gas close to ambient
> temperature were the water simply condenses. Another point in the process
> were you extract energy at very very low temperature level. I would consider
> this energy as a complete loss. From there you can use the dried, cold
> synthetic methane in your engine and produce electricity.
>
>
>
> To put it in numbers: Good gasification-gas engine plants reach
> efficiencies around 25 to 30% without bottoming-cycle (steam cycle to use
> exhaust heat). The methanation process has an efficiency around 65%.
> Together with a very high combustion engine efficiency of 42.5%, you end up
> with a maximum efficiency of a gasification-methanation-gas engine scheme of
> around 27.5%. However, with considerably higher equipment cost. I definitely
> recommend not to use a methanation step as fuel upgrading step but to use
> the syngas directly in your engine. In any case, the world totally changes
> if you aim at using high-temperature fuel cells, gas turbines or if you want
> to make the wood energy transportable and storable. The latter was the idea
> of the PSI methanation project given Switzerlands dependence on foreign gas
> imports.
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Florian
>
>
>
> *From:* gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:
> gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] *On Behalf Of *Jim Leach
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 01, 2011 15:51
> *To:* 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'
> *Subject:* Re: [Gasification] back to gasification
>
>
>
> Jan,
>
> I am curious what method you selected for tar removal. Also, was the
> methanation step expensive?  The methane would make a better engine fuel
> than the H2 and CO but I am concerned about the cost.
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *JAMES T. LEACH, P.E.*
>
> *President*
>
>
>
> *DANA TECHNOLOGIES, INC.*
>
> *32242 Paseo Adelanto, Suite D*
>
> *San Juan Capistrano, CA 92675*
>
> *Ph 949-496-6516*
>
> *Fx 949-496-8133*
>
> *Mobile 949-933-6518*
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:
> gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] *On Behalf Of *Jan
> Kopyscinski
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 01, 2011 1:13 PM
> *To:* Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> *Subject:* Re: [Gasification] back to gasification
>
> Hi Kevin,
>
> I did my Phd thesis on this topic. You can find more information there:
> http://e-collection.library.ethz.ch/view/eth:1059
>
> or under www.bio-sng.com and www.biosng.com,
> http://www.biofuelstp.eu/bio-sng.html and on other pages.
>
> In  a nut shell the process consits of:
> 1) low temperature steam gasification
> 2) gas cleaning (ash, tar, H2S, ...)
> 3) methanation = conversion of the syngas into methan (catalytic process,
> mostly Nickelcatalyst)
>  CO + 3 H2 --> CH4 + H2O
>  CO + H2O --> H2 + CO2
>
> If you use a different catalyst you can go for higher hydrocarbon such as
> Fischer Tropsch Diesel, or Methanol, ....
>
> 4) Fuel upgrading = removal of H2O, CO2
>
> We at the Paul Scherrer Institute in Switzerland (http://tpe.web.psi.ch/)
> investigated this process from wood to BioSNG in two scales for more than
> 1000h.
>
> Regards
>
> Jan
>
> -
>
> Dr. sc. Jan Kopyscinski
>
> Postdoctoral fellow
>
> Department of Chemical and Petroleum Engineering
>
> Schulich School of Engineering
>
> University of Calgary
>
> 2500 University Drive NW
>
> Calgary, Alberta, Canada  T2N 1N4
>
>
>
> Email: jan.kopyscinski at ucalgary.ca
>
> Phone: 001 403 2109575
>
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *Von:* Kevin <kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
> *Gesendet:* May 31, 2011 5:02:24 PM
> *An:* "Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification" <
> gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Betreff:* Re: [Gasification] back to gasification
>
> Dear Jan
>
>
>
> Very interesting!!
>
>
>
> What steam temperature and pressure is required to gasify wood?
>
>
>
> Once one has such gas, what sort processing is required to convert it to
> CH4? (That is, what temperatures, pressures, catalysts, etc)
>
>
>
> Is there any way this can be done on a small scale?
>
>
>
> Is there any way this process can be modified to produce methanol on a
> small scale? If so, this would be awesome... it would then yield a very
> portable liquid fuel.
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> Kevin
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Jan Kopyscinski <jan.kopy at web.de>
>
> *To:* Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification<gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 31, 2011 11:30 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Gasification] back to gasification
>
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> First of all, there are at least two different types of biofuel:
> First Generation:  agricultural feedstock, which is converted by means of
> biochemical processes (i.e., digestion) --> Biogas
> Second Generation: woody biomass that is converted via thermochemical
> converiosn into a producer or so-calles syngas (Gasification).
> Thus, if your goal is to produce Methan or Natural Gas substite for a gas
> engine or transportation fuel you have different options. But you need to
> know what is your feedstock (dry , wet, digestable or not digestable such as
> wood):
> If you have a rather dry feedstock you can go for steam gasifiaction (no
> air, means no Nitrogen). The produced syngas you can catalytilcally convert
> to CH4, CO2 and H2O. Prior to the methanation process you need to remove the
> sulphur since it is deactivating your catalyts. H2O and CO2 can then be
> removed. This process has been investiaget by the Paul Scherrer Institiute
> in Switzerland (www.psi.ch and www.bio-sng.com).
> Removal of nitrogen is too expensive, thus you should avoid feeding it into
> your process. 2 vol% to max 5vol% N2 in the methan rich gas is acceptable.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jan
>  ------------------------------
>
> *Von:* "Pannirselvam P.V" <pannirbr at gmail.com>
> *Gesendet:* May 31, 2011 12:46:54 PM
> *An:* "Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification" <
> gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Betreff:* Re: [Gasification] back to gasification
>
> Dear A.D Karve
>
>
>
>       One of the project we have been studying  is based on the
>  IGT,Instuite  Gas technology patented process  called Biotherm , in which
> the  wood  gas or syngqs  can be passed into the biodigestor, in which  CO
> and  Hydrogen can  be converted into  methane ; the  NOX .COX, SOX removed
> via simple  known wet or  dry process using activated charcoal and  lime ;
> the methane is then compressed.The N  can be removed  as ammonia,as this can
> be very toxic to bio methane bacteria; Syngas obtained via pyrogas can
> reduce this N2 problem and complexity.Thus pyrogas technology  has more
> potential than  wood gas technology
>
>
>
>   we are studying how to make this complex process into simple innovative
> process to  make possible charcoal and  methane economy which is practiced
>  in the developed country  in big scale  can be  made possible in developing
> village level technology too in small scale ,The project is yet in design
> stage to reduce CO2 to use as liquid  fertilizer too increasing the
> calorific valued the compressed biogas.
>
>
>
> Yours truely
>
> Pannirselvam
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 11:01 PM, Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear List,
> We are already using, in India, wood gas made from agricultural waste
> to run stationary internal combustion engines. But, for using it as
> automobile fuel, it would have to be filled into cylinders, for which
> the nitrogen in the wood gas would have to be removed in order to
> reduce its bulk and to increase its calorfiic value. Does anybody have
> a suggestion as to how this can be achieved?
> Yours
> A.D.Karve
>
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ASSOCIATE . PROF.
Research Group ,GPEC, Coordinator
Computer aided  Cost engineering

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