[Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 36

Tue Oct 19 01:57:56 CDT 2010

Dear Duncan,
Thank you for closing this long standing argument. Thank you finally for
not supporting the blemishing of the weidely known facts and thoughtfully
srcipted books about Biogas. I agree that certain facts are missing and may
provide a link to other truths. However, what is most important is that you
specifically lay these points with clear references to the points in the
books that you disagree.
Thanks again
Sumedh Bapat

On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 12:30 AM, <
digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org> wrote:

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>   1. Re: Attachment to previous Article - More scientific based
>      research and questions (Duncan Martin)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 08:53:27 +0100
> From: Duncan Martin <duncanjmartin at gmail.com>
> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
>        <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Attachment to previous Article - More
>        scientific based research and questions
> Message-ID:
>        <AANLkTimX7cyetVk99Wjvvh5uTKs-3NBVDSV-CNDskWVc at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Perhaps Dr Karve & I should agree to disagree?
>
> To argue that dung is not food for the methanogens because they need help
> to
> digest it is really a semantic quibble. It misses the point I was
> responding
> to - that the digestion process is not *completed *by the act of
> defaecation, it is merely *terminated* for the owner of the gut in
> question.
>
> I have never seen any serious literature suggesting that microbes are
> altruistic. However, the principles of commensalism are well established
> and
> I see no basis for dismissing them. Moreover, the complex web of metabolic
> interactions in AD has been extensively researched and is pretty well
> understood - though I am sure there is more to discover.
>
> Nor have I seen any literature whatsoever suggesting that the methanogens
> consume other microorganisms. I would be intrigued to see a proposed
> mechanism.
>
> To dismiss all the textbooks as wrong (see previous postings) is unhelpful,
> at best. Who could only say that unless he had read every one of them? Of
> course, there are mistakes - even in the best books - if only because
> science moves on, so any book becomes outdated. And there are indeed some
> layman's guides to AD that include some odd ideas - but who would take them
> as serious guides to the science?
>
> When we find such errors, let us use this forum to report them - giving
> exact references. But lets not confuse newcomers to the field by dismissing
> every other source of information as rubbish.
>
> Finally, let us accept that each of us is entitled to his opinion - but
> lets
> reserve this forum for the fruits of practical experience and
> evidence-based
> information.
>
> I suggest we draw a line under the present debate.
>
> Duncan Martin, PhD, MCIWM, MIChemE, MIEI
> Cloughjordan Ecovillage
> Ireland
>
> On 17 October 2010 16:39, Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear Duncan,
> > I dont believe in the theory of a chain of micro-organisms, with one
> > species converting the cellulose into glucose, another converting the
> > glucose into an organic acid (e.g. citric acid), still another converting
> > the organic acid into acetic acid and ultimately the acetic acid being
> > converted by the methanogenic organisms into carbon dioxide and methane.
> If
> > this were true, one would have by now isolated the organism that
> converted
> > cellulose into glucose and used the glucose to produce alcohol. Cellulose
> is
> > the most ubiquitously found organic compount in the world and with this
> > simple process, one would have produced unlimited quantity of liquid
> fuel.
> > But even today, the conversion of cellulose into glucose is achieved in
> any
> > industrial process by using a cellulolytic enzyme extracted from a
> > cellulolytic organism. The reason for this is, that the glucose converted
> by
> > the organism from cellulose is consumed by the same organism. And once it
> is
> > consumed by an organism, it is converted into its cell all the way down
> to
> > carbon dioxide. The micro-organisms in the gut of an animal cannot be
> > expected to be so altruistic as to predigest the food and suply it to the
> > methanogens. I feel that the methanogenic organisms consume the fellow
> > micro-organisms in the gut of animals and digest them to produce methane
> and
> > carbon dioxide. Such dog-eat-dog reactions occur also in the soil
> supplied
> > with organic matter.
> >         In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic organisms
> do
> > not digest the dung directly and that they need the help of other
> organisms
> > to digest it, one cannot accept that dung is the food of the methanogens.
> It
> > is like saying that manure applied to a field is human food, because
> through
> > a number of biological processes it ultimately ends up into products,
> which
> > the humans eat.
> > Yours
> > A.D.Karve
> > On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Duncan Martin <duncanjmartin at gmail.com
> >wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Yes, the gut methanogens do, in a sense, eat what the animal eats.
> >> However, it would be more accurate to say that their diet is derived
> from
> >> what the animal eats. The methanogens in the gut of a cow are surrounded
> by
> >> celluose and other biopolymers but they cannot digest them. They live on
> the
> >> waste products of other microbial processes. The web of metabolic
> >> interactions is well known.
> >>
> >> Where I would "hoot out" Dr Karve is his belief that dung cannot serve
> as
> >> food for the methanogens because they are "thrown out" of the body along
> >> with the dung. I don't understand the logic here.
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> > for more information about digestion, see
> > Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
> >
> >
> >
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> End of Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 36
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