[Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 41
Sumedh Bapat
sumedh.bapat at gmail.com
Mon Oct 25 07:09:55 CDT 2010
dear dr. Karve,
Thank you for your attempt at explaining your own findings. They seem more
of confusions to me now. Just a last few questions.
- What is the method that is used to measure the produced gas in your
plants & in the plant in wardha ?
Thank you,
Sumedh Bapat
On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 12:30 AM, <
digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 31 (Anand Karve)
> 2. Re: Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40 (Sumedh Bapat)
> 3. Re: Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40 (Anand Karve)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 12:58:18 +0800
> From: Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com>
> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
> <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 31
> Message-ID:
> <AANLkTimtM04PxpfV95kwhr+vtbwO0fqLgbF0m6R9JxFm at mail.gmail.com<AANLkTimtM04PxpfV95kwhr%2BvtbwO0fqLgbF0m6R9JxFm at mail.gmail.com>
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Dear Mr. Oliviera,
> there is a positive correlation between the population density of microbes
> in the soil and soil fertility. Therefore, application of any biodegradable
> organic material to the soil causes the microbes in the soil to multiply.
> In
> the process of multiplication, they absorb minerals from the soil. The
> textbooks say that they cannot absorb minerals from the soil, because the
> soil minerals are insoluble, but that is not true. Water is a universal
> solvent, and the capillary water in the soil always contains all the soil
> minerals dissolved in it, albeit in a very small concentration, which can
> be
> measured only in P.P.M. or P.P.B. If you applied pure sugar to the soil,
> the
> soil microbes increase their numbers 500 to 1000 times within 24 hours.This
> shows that the microbes can take up minerals from the capillary water in
> the
> soil. The minerals sequestered in their cells are now in the form of
> proteins, co-enzymes etc,.which are highly water soluble. When the organic
> matter has been exhausted, the microbes die of starvation, and when their
> cells lyse, the minerals released in the soil are taken up by plants. Thus,
> even a relatively small quantity of high calorie organic matter applied to
> the soil can lead to an increase in the soil fertility. Literally thousands
> of farmers in Maharashtra state in India are nowadays following this
> tactic.
> They apply to their field just 25 kg sugar per acre, once every three
> months, and no other chemical fertilizer or organic manure. And yet they
> get
> very high yield from their crops, equivalent to the yield that they used to
> obtain by applying costly chemical fertilizers.
> Yours
> A.D.Karve
> On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 6:18 AM, Ivo Oliveira <ivomdb at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I've been reading a couple of documents about vermicompost and digester
> > effluent aplication to different crops. For exemple: Vegetables (carrot,
> > spinach, onions etc), Fruits and maize. For instance when applying
> digester
> > effluent to vegetables 100 l per hectare (of a total 300 l mixed with
> water
> > on a 1:3 ratio) should be added every 10 days. It seems quite small....
> > However I found in other articles that you can apply raw digester
> effluent
> > without dilution but doesn't say the amounts that should be added.
> >
> > Using Vermicompost the information seems more available but still not
> sure.
> > For example I found that you can apply 120 g of vermicompost/ plant
> (crop)
> > or 60 g or 10 g to vegetables.....
> >
> > So... the information available is some what diverse. I wonder if someone
> > could share his knowledge when using digester effluent or vermicompost as
> an
> > organic fertilizer.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Ivo Oliveira
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 12:00 PM, <
> > digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Send Digestion mailing list submissions to
> >> digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>
> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >>
> >>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>
> >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >> digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
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> >>
> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> >> than "Re: Contents of Digestion digest..."
> >>
> >>
> >> Today's Topics:
> >>
> >> 1. Re: Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 29 (David Fulford)
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 1
> >> Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 11:21:31 +0100
> >> From: David Fulford <davidf at kingdombio.com>
> >> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
> >> <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 29
> >> Message-ID: <4CB5882B.1040104 at kingdombio.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
> >>
> >> Listers, Hi
> >>
> >> The Ashden Awards <http://www.ashdenawards.org/int_awards> are looking
> >> for projects on renewable energy to be submitted for a possible award.
> >> Biogas projects have done well in past years (see the videos listed
> >> under Ashden Awards on the Biogas Wikispaces
> >> <http://biogas.wikispaces.com/Videos> page). I have added the two that
> >> won awards in 2010.
> >>
> >> If you think you have, or know of, a project that could be classed as an
> >> "Energy Champion", that relates to any form of renewable energy do
> >> consider applying. The deadline for International Awards is fairly tight
> >> - 19 October, so you need to download the information
> >> <
> >>
> http://www.ashdenawards.org/files/docs/2011/International_EOI_briefing.pdf
> >> >
> >> and the forms
> >> <
> >>
> http://www.ashdenawards.org/files/application_form_2010/Ashden_Awards_2011_International_EOI_form.xls
> >> >
> >> and fill them in quickly. As well as projects involving biogas, they are
> >> also looking for projects on the wider subject of biomass, as well as
> >> solar, hydro and wind, or any system that provides or encourages the use
> >> of sustainable energy.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> David Fulford
> >> --
> >>
> >> ********************************************************************
> >> Dr David Fulford CEnv MEI, 15, Brandon Ave, Woodley, Reading RG5 4PU
> >> d.j.fulford at btinternet.com <mailto:d.j.fulford at btinternet.com>, Tel:
> >> +44(0)118 326 9779 Mob: +44(0)7746 806401
> >> Kingdom Bioenergy Ltd, www.kingdombio.com <http://www.kingdombio.com>,
> >> davidf at kindombio.com <mailto:davidf at kindombio.com>
> >>
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> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Digestion mailing list
> >>
> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >> Digestion at bioenergylists.org
> >>
> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >> for more information about digestion, see
> >> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> >> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> >> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> End of Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 31
> >> ****************************************
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Digestion mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > Digestion at bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more information about digestion, see
> > Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> ***
> Dr. A.D. Karve
> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>
> *Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com *
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 14:07:45 +0530
> From: Sumedh Bapat <sumedh.bapat at gmail.com>
> To: digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40
> Message-ID:
> <AANLkTimwCStXcg7Yf57U8MAVtAXt+C-uK20wEq=GWdZx at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Dear Dr. Karve,
> I am sorry to comment on this again but I cannot overlook the discrepancy
> in
> the information you have provided here..
>
> * on October 17 you said :*
> "In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic organisms do not
> digest the dung directly and that they need the help of other organisms to
> digest it, one cannot accept that dung is the food of the methanogens. It
> is
> like saying that manure applied to a field is human food, because through a
> number of biological processes it ultimately ends up into products, which
> the humans eat."
>
> *on October 24 you said :*
> "According to text book knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced about
> 30,000 litres (or 30 cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas plant
> produces 540 cubic meters of it."
>
>
> I also happen to notice that both the subjects refer to cow dung. Now it
> can
> be seen that you claim that some other plant is generating 540 times more
> gas than your plants.
> Do you mean that this 540 m3 gas that you saw, is produced by Methanogens
> which have consumed other similar organisms from the biogas plant , which
> in
> turn had "eaten" the Cpw Dung ?
> Can you please explain the sudden Biogas Generation manifold increase
> from 30 m3 (conventionally known) to 540 m3 ?
> *Again* _ Can you please provide a basis for such a finding ?
>
> Kind Regards,
> Sumedh Bapat
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 12:30 AM, <
> digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org> wrote:
>
> > Send Digestion mailing list submissions to
> > digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > digestion-owner at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Digestion digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Attachment to previous Article - More scientific based
> > research and questions (Anand Karve)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 02:43:13 +0800
> > From: Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com>
> > To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
> > <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Digestion] Attachment to previous Article - More
> > scientific based research and questions
> > Message-ID:
> > <AANLkTi=qxog1xd-4Q9JOwVaNpL8S=Bgpc2n=JxY7R5a=@mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Dear Dr. Martin,
> > I have just returned from a city called Wardha, where I attended a
> workshop
> > arranged jointly by the Research Councils of UK and the Department of
> > Science and Technology, Government of India. About 20 scientists each
> from
> > UK and India were invited to this meeting.
> > In the course of field visits organised during the workshop, Dr. Soham
> > Pandya, The Director of Centre of Science for Villages, an NGO in Wardha,
> > showed us an amazing biogas plant on his campus. This biogas plant
> accepts
> > about 1000 kg cattle dung as a one-time load and produces daily about 3
> > cubic meters of biogas, continuously over a period of about 180 days.
> This
> > is not the only biogas plant constructed by him. Using funds from the
> > Department of Science and Technology, He has constructed a similar biogas
> > plant in another place called Hingoli, where a one-time load of 1000 kg
> > dung yields biogas continuously for 6 months, to run an electricity
> > generator for daily 3 to 4 hours, to provide electric lighting to all the
> > houses in the village. Officials of the Department of Science and
> > Technology vouched for the veracity of these claims. According to text
> book
> > knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced about 30,000 litres (or 30
> > cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas plant produces 540 cubic
> > meters of it.
> > Neither Dr. Pandya nor any other scientist could give a
> > scientific explanation to this phenomenally high yield of biogas. Dung of
> > Indian cattle consists mainly of lignin (from the veins and midribs of
> the
> > grass and leaves that they feed on) and micro-organisms. One has to
> assume
> > in this case, that there are microbes in the dung that feed on the lignin
> > and that the methanogens digested the lignin eating microbes.
> > Yours
> > A.D.Karve
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Duncan Martin <duncanjmartin at gmail.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > Perhaps Dr Karve & I should agree to disagree?
> > >
> > > To argue that dung is not food for the methanogens because they need
> help
> > > to digest it is really a semantic quibble. It misses the point I was
> > > responding to - that the digestion process is not *completed *by the
> act
> > > of defaecation, it is merely *terminated* for the owner of the gut in
> > > question.
> > >
> > > I have never seen any serious literature suggesting that microbes are
> > > altruistic. However, the principles of commensalism are well
> established
> > and
> > > I see no basis for dismissing them. Moreover, the complex web of
> > metabolic
> > > interactions in AD has been extensively researched and is pretty well
> > > understood - though I am sure there is more to discover.
> > >
> > > Nor have I seen any literature whatsoever suggesting that the
> methanogens
> > > consume other microorganisms. I would be intrigued to see a proposed
> > > mechanism.
> > >
> > > To dismiss all the textbooks as wrong (see previous postings) is
> > unhelpful,
> > > at best. Who could only say that unless he had read every one of them?
> Of
> > > course, there are mistakes - even in the best books - if only because
> > > science moves on, so any book becomes outdated. And there are indeed
> some
> > > layman's guides to AD that include some odd ideas - but who would take
> > them
> > > as serious guides to the science?
> > >
> > > When we find such errors, let us use this forum to report them - giving
> > > exact references. But lets not confuse newcomers to the field by
> > dismissing
> > > every other source of information as rubbish.
> > >
> > > Finally, let us accept that each of us is entitled to his opinion - but
> > > lets reserve this forum for the fruits of practical experience and
> > > evidence-based information.
> > >
> > > I suggest we draw a line under the present debate.
> > >
> > > Duncan Martin, PhD, MCIWM, MIChemE, MIEI
> > > Cloughjordan Ecovillage
> > > Ireland
> > >
> > > On 17 October 2010 16:39, Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Dear Duncan,
> > >> I dont believe in the theory of a chain of micro-organisms, with one
> > >> species converting the cellulose into glucose, another converting the
> > >> glucose into an organic acid (e.g. citric acid), still another
> > converting
> > >> the organic acid into acetic acid and ultimately the acetic acid being
> > >> converted by the methanogenic organisms into carbon dioxide and
> methane.
> > If
> > >> this were true, one would have by now isolated the organism that
> > converted
> > >> cellulose into glucose and used the glucose to produce alcohol.
> > Cellulose is
> > >> the most ubiquitously found organic compount in the world and with
> this
> > >> simple process, one would have produced unlimited quantity of liquid
> > fuel.
> > >> But even today, the conversion of cellulose into glucose is achieved
> in
> > any
> > >> industrial process by using a cellulolytic enzyme extracted from a
> > >> cellulolytic organism. The reason for this is, that the glucose
> > converted by
> > >> the organism from cellulose is consumed by the same organism. And once
> > it is
> > >> consumed by an organism, it is converted into its cell all the way
> down
> > to
> > >> carbon dioxide. The micro-organisms in the gut of an animal cannot be
> > >> expected to be so altruistic as to predigest the food and suply it to
> > the
> > >> methanogens. I feel that the methanogenic organisms consume the fellow
> > >> micro-organisms in the gut of animals and digest them to produce
> methane
> > and
> > >> carbon dioxide. Such dog-eat-dog reactions occur also in the soil
> > supplied
> > >> with organic matter.
> > >> In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic
> organisms
> > >> do not digest the dung directly and that they need the help of other
> > >> organisms to digest it, one cannot accept that dung is the food of the
> > >> methanogens. It is like saying that manure applied to a field is human
> > food,
> > >> because through a number of biological processes it ultimately ends up
> > into
> > >> products, which the humans eat.
> > >> Yours
> > >> A.D.Karve
> > >> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Duncan Martin <
> > duncanjmartin at gmail.com
> > >> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>> Yes, the gut methanogens do, in a sense, eat what the animal eats.
> > >>> However, it would be more accurate to say that their diet is derived
> > from
> > >>> what the animal eats. The methanogens in the gut of a cow are
> > surrounded by
> > >>> celluose and other biopolymers but they cannot digest them. They live
> > on the
> > >>> waste products of other microbial processes. The web of metabolic
> > >>> interactions is well known.
> > >>>
> > >>> Where I would "hoot out" Dr Karve is his belief that dung cannot
> serve
> > as
> > >>> food for the methanogens because they are "thrown out" of the body
> > along
> > >>> with the dung. I don't understand the logic here.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Digestion mailing list
> > >>
> > >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > >> Digestion at bioenergylists.org
> > >>
> > >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >>
> > >> for more information about digestion, see
> > >> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> > >> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> > >> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Digestion mailing list
> > >
> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > > Digestion at bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > for more information about digestion, see
> > > Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> > > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> > > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ***
> > Dr. A.D. Karve
> > President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
> >
> > *Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com *
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> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Digestion mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > Digestion at bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more information about digestion, see
> > Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
> >
> >
> >
> > End of Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40
> > ****************************************
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 17:31:10 +0800
> From: Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com>
> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
> <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40
> Message-ID:
> <AANLkTinpeuNYs446hbVAu2o5Dz17v9U6jCgyhkhgKxkO at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Dear Mr. Bapat,
> the biogas plant in Wardha, which accepts 1000 kg cattle dung as a one-time
> load and produces daily 3 cubic meter biogas continuously over a period of
> 180 days, was an absolutely novel system to me. In fact that is why I
> reported it, because I felt that somebody in the AD discussion group maight
> know more about it. Since neither the British scientists nor any of the
> Indian scientists present there could give a scientific explanation to this
> phenomenon, I have ventured a plausible explanation. The Archaea are a very
> ancient group of organisms. Lignin is produced by green plants, which
> evolved much later. Therefore the methanogens cannot digest lignin. The
> fact
> that in Wardha, this particular biogas plant was producing almost 18 times
> as much biogas as would be expected, can be explained by the assumption
> that lignin was being digested by some other organisms and the products of
> the lignin digesting organisms were being made available to the
> mehanogens. But the speculation that some species of organisms conduct
> extra-cellular digestion of cellulose or lignin, and make the products
> of such digestion available to the methanogens, is not acceptable to me,
> because if such were really the case, one would have used such organisms to
> produce sugars from lignocellulosic material and then obtained alcohol from
> these sugars. Since nobody has succeeded in doing this, I feel that the
> organisms that digest cellulose or lignin consume the sugars themselves and
> multiply their own numbers, and that the methanogens consume these microbes
> to produce methane. I am ready to accept any other explanation, if it is
> logical.
> Yours
> A.D.Karve
>
> On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Sumedh Bapat <sumedh.bapat at gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Dear Dr. Karve,
> > I am sorry to comment on this again but I cannot overlook the discrepancy
> > in the information you have provided here..
> >
> > * on October 17 you said :*
> > "In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic organisms do not
> > digest the dung directly and that they need the help of other organisms
> to
> > digest it, one cannot accept that dung is the food of the methanogens. It
> is
> > like saying that manure applied to a field is human food, because through
> a
> > number of biological processes it ultimately ends up into products, which
> > the humans eat."
> >
> > *on October 24 you said :*
> > "According to text book knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced
> about
> > 30,000 litres (or 30 cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas
> plant
> > produces 540 cubic meters of it."
> >
> >
> > I also happen to notice that both the subjects refer to cow dung.
> > Now it can be seen that you claim that some other plant is generating 540
> > times more gas than your plants.
> > Do you mean that this 540 m3 gas that you saw, is produced by Methanogens
> > which have consumed other similar organisms from the biogas plant , which
> in
> > turn had "eaten" the Cpw Dung ?
> > Can you please explain the sudden Biogas Generation manifold increase
> > from 30 m3 (conventionally known) to 540 m3 ?
> > *Again* _ Can you please provide a basis for such a finding ?
> >
> > Kind Regards,
> > Sumedh Bapat
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 12:30 AM, <
> > digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org> wrote:
> >
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> >> Today's Topics:
> >>
> >> 1. Re: Attachment to previous Article - More scientific based
> >> research and questions (Anand Karve)
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 1
> >> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 02:43:13 +0800
> >> From: Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com>
> >> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
> >> <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Attachment to previous Article - More
> >> scientific based research and questions
> >> Message-ID:
> >> <AANLkTi=qxog1xd-4Q9JOwVaNpL8S=Bgpc2n=JxY7R5a=@mail.gmail.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >>
> >> Dear Dr. Martin,
> >> I have just returned from a city called Wardha, where I attended a
> >> workshop
> >> arranged jointly by the Research Councils of UK and the Department of
> >> Science and Technology, Government of India. About 20 scientists each
> from
> >> UK and India were invited to this meeting.
> >> In the course of field visits organised during the workshop, Dr. Soham
> >> Pandya, The Director of Centre of Science for Villages, an NGO in
> Wardha,
> >> showed us an amazing biogas plant on his campus. This biogas plant
> accepts
> >> about 1000 kg cattle dung as a one-time load and produces daily about 3
> >> cubic meters of biogas, continuously over a period of about 180 days.
> >> This
> >> is not the only biogas plant constructed by him. Using funds from the
> >> Department of Science and Technology, He has constructed a similar
> biogas
> >> plant in another place called Hingoli, where a one-time load of 1000 kg
> >> dung yields biogas continuously for 6 months, to run an electricity
> >> generator for daily 3 to 4 hours, to provide electric lighting to all
> the
> >> houses in the village. Officials of the Department of Science and
> >> Technology vouched for the veracity of these claims. According to text
> >> book
> >> knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced about 30,000 litres (or 30
> >> cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas plant produces 540
> cubic
> >> meters of it.
> >> Neither Dr. Pandya nor any other scientist could give a
> >> scientific explanation to this phenomenally high yield of biogas. Dung
> of
> >> Indian cattle consists mainly of lignin (from the veins and midribs of
> the
> >> grass and leaves that they feed on) and micro-organisms. One has to
> assume
> >> in this case, that there are microbes in the dung that feed on the
> lignin
> >> and that the methanogens digested the lignin eating microbes.
> >> Yours
> >> A.D.Karve
> >>
> >> On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Duncan Martin <duncanjmartin at gmail.com
> >> >wrote:
> >>
> >> > Perhaps Dr Karve & I should agree to disagree?
> >> >
> >> > To argue that dung is not food for the methanogens because they need
> >> help
> >> > to digest it is really a semantic quibble. It misses the point I was
> >> > responding to - that the digestion process is not *completed *by the
> act
> >> > of defaecation, it is merely *terminated* for the owner of the gut in
> >> > question.
> >> >
> >> > I have never seen any serious literature suggesting that microbes are
> >> > altruistic. However, the principles of commensalism are well
> established
> >> and
> >> > I see no basis for dismissing them. Moreover, the complex web of
> >> metabolic
> >> > interactions in AD has been extensively researched and is pretty well
> >> > understood - though I am sure there is more to discover.
> >> >
> >> > Nor have I seen any literature whatsoever suggesting that the
> >> methanogens
> >> > consume other microorganisms. I would be intrigued to see a proposed
> >> > mechanism.
> >> >
> >> > To dismiss all the textbooks as wrong (see previous postings) is
> >> unhelpful,
> >> > at best. Who could only say that unless he had read every one of them?
> >> Of
> >> > course, there are mistakes - even in the best books - if only because
> >> > science moves on, so any book becomes outdated. And there are indeed
> >> some
> >> > layman's guides to AD that include some odd ideas - but who would take
> >> them
> >> > as serious guides to the science?
> >> >
> >> > When we find such errors, let us use this forum to report them -
> giving
> >> > exact references. But lets not confuse newcomers to the field by
> >> dismissing
> >> > every other source of information as rubbish.
> >> >
> >> > Finally, let us accept that each of us is entitled to his opinion -
> but
> >> > lets reserve this forum for the fruits of practical experience and
> >> > evidence-based information.
> >> >
> >> > I suggest we draw a line under the present debate.
> >> >
> >> > Duncan Martin, PhD, MCIWM, MIChemE, MIEI
> >> > Cloughjordan Ecovillage
> >> > Ireland
> >> >
> >> > On 17 October 2010 16:39, Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Dear Duncan,
> >> >> I dont believe in the theory of a chain of micro-organisms, with one
> >> >> species converting the cellulose into glucose, another converting the
> >> >> glucose into an organic acid (e.g. citric acid), still another
> >> converting
> >> >> the organic acid into acetic acid and ultimately the acetic acid
> being
> >> >> converted by the methanogenic organisms into carbon dioxide and
> >> methane. If
> >> >> this were true, one would have by now isolated the organism that
> >> converted
> >> >> cellulose into glucose and used the glucose to produce alcohol.
> >> Cellulose is
> >> >> the most ubiquitously found organic compount in the world and with
> this
> >> >> simple process, one would have produced unlimited quantity of liquid
> >> fuel.
> >> >> But even today, the conversion of cellulose into glucose is achieved
> in
> >> any
> >> >> industrial process by using a cellulolytic enzyme extracted from a
> >> >> cellulolytic organism. The reason for this is, that the glucose
> >> converted by
> >> >> the organism from cellulose is consumed by the same organism. And
> once
> >> it is
> >> >> consumed by an organism, it is converted into its cell all the way
> down
> >> to
> >> >> carbon dioxide. The micro-organisms in the gut of an animal cannot be
> >> >> expected to be so altruistic as to predigest the food and suply it to
> >> the
> >> >> methanogens. I feel that the methanogenic organisms consume the
> fellow
> >> >> micro-organisms in the gut of animals and digest them to produce
> >> methane and
> >> >> carbon dioxide. Such dog-eat-dog reactions occur also in the soil
> >> supplied
> >> >> with organic matter.
> >> >> In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic
> >> organisms
> >> >> do not digest the dung directly and that they need the help of other
> >> >> organisms to digest it, one cannot accept that dung is the food of
> the
> >> >> methanogens. It is like saying that manure applied to a field is
> human
> >> food,
> >> >> because through a number of biological processes it ultimately ends
> up
> >> into
> >> >> products, which the humans eat.
> >> >> Yours
> >> >> A.D.Karve
> >> >> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Duncan Martin <
> >> duncanjmartin at gmail.com
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Yes, the gut methanogens do, in a sense, eat what the animal eats.
> >> >>> However, it would be more accurate to say that their diet is derived
> >> from
> >> >>> what the animal eats. The methanogens in the gut of a cow are
> >> surrounded by
> >> >>> celluose and other biopolymers but they cannot digest them. They
> live
> >> on the
> >> >>> waste products of other microbial processes. The web of metabolic
> >> >>> interactions is well known.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Where I would "hoot out" Dr Karve is his belief that dung cannot
> serve
> >> as
> >> >>> food for the methanogens because they are "thrown out" of the body
> >> along
> >> >>> with the dung. I don't understand the logic here.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> Digestion mailing list
> >> >>
> >> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >> >> Digestion at bioenergylists.org
> >> >>
> >> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >> >>
> >> >> for more information about digestion, see
> >> >> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> >> >> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> >> >> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Digestion mailing list
> >> >
> >> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >> > Digestion at bioenergylists.org
> >> >
> >> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >> >
> >> > for more information about digestion, see
> >> > Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> >> > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> >> > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> ***
> >> Dr. A.D. Karve
> >> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
> >>
> >> *Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com *
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> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Digestion mailing list
> >>
> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >>
> >>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>
> >> for more information about digestion, see
> >> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> >> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> >> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> End of Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40
> >> ****************************************
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Digestion mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > Digestion at bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more information about digestion, see
> > Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> ***
> Dr. A.D. Karve
> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>
> *Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com *
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> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Digestion mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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> for more information about digestion, see
> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>
>
>
> End of Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 41
> ****************************************
>
--
Kind Regards,
*Sumedh Bapat
+919881090693 / +919879110924*
*Excellent Renewable Pvt. Ltd.
*(formerly known as Excel Electricals Pvt. Ltd.)
Excel Estate, Vashier,
Valsad, Gujarat 396001
India
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