[Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 41

Anand Karve adkarve at gmail.com
Mon Oct 25 07:00:43 PDT 2010


 In both the cases, the gas is collected in a moving drum type gas holder,
which allows easy measurement of biogas.
Yours
A.D.Karve


On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 8:09 PM, Sumedh Bapat <sumedh.bapat at gmail.com>wrote:

> dear dr. Karve,
> Thank you for your attempt at explaining your own findings. They seem more
> of confusions to me now. Just a last few questions.
>
>    - What is the method that is used to measure the produced gas in your
>    plants & in the plant in wardha ?
>
> Thank you,
> Sumedh Bapat
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 12:30 AM, <
> digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org> wrote:
>
>> Send Digestion mailing list submissions to
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>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>   1. Re: Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 31 (Anand Karve)
>>   2. Re: Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40 (Sumedh Bapat)
>>   3. Re: Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40 (Anand Karve)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 12:58:18 +0800
>> From: Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com>
>> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
>>        <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 31
>> Message-ID:
>>        <AANLkTimtM04PxpfV95kwhr+vtbwO0fqLgbF0m6R9JxFm at mail.gmail.com<AANLkTimtM04PxpfV95kwhr%2BvtbwO0fqLgbF0m6R9JxFm at mail.gmail.com>
>> >
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Dear Mr. Oliviera,
>> there is a positive correlation between the population density of microbes
>> in the soil and soil fertility. Therefore, application of any
>> biodegradable
>> organic material to the soil causes the microbes in the soil to multiply.
>> In
>> the process of multiplication, they absorb minerals from the soil. The
>> textbooks say that they cannot absorb minerals from the soil, because the
>> soil minerals are insoluble, but that is not true. Water is a universal
>> solvent, and the capillary water in the soil always contains all the soil
>> minerals dissolved in it, albeit in a very small concentration, which can
>> be
>> measured only in P.P.M. or P.P.B. If you applied pure sugar to the soil,
>> the
>> soil microbes increase their numbers 500 to 1000 times within 24
>> hours.This
>> shows that the microbes can take up minerals from the capillary water in
>> the
>> soil.  The minerals sequestered in their cells are now in the form of
>> proteins, co-enzymes etc,.which are highly water soluble. When the organic
>> matter has been exhausted, the microbes die of starvation, and when their
>> cells lyse, the minerals released in the soil are taken up by plants.
>> Thus,
>> even a relatively small quantity of high calorie organic matter applied to
>> the soil can lead to an increase in the soil fertility. Literally
>> thousands
>> of farmers in Maharashtra state in India are nowadays following this
>> tactic.
>> They apply to their field just 25 kg sugar per acre, once every three
>> months, and no other chemical fertilizer or organic manure. And yet they
>> get
>> very high yield from their crops, equivalent to the yield that they used
>> to
>> obtain by applying costly chemical fertilizers.
>> Yours
>> A.D.Karve
>> On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 6:18 AM, Ivo Oliveira <ivomdb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > I've been reading a couple of documents about vermicompost and digester
>> > effluent aplication to different crops. For exemple: Vegetables (carrot,
>> > spinach, onions etc), Fruits and maize. For instance when applying
>> digester
>> > effluent to vegetables 100 l per hectare (of a total 300 l mixed with
>> water
>> > on a 1:3 ratio) should be added every 10 days. It seems quite small....
>> > However I found in other articles that you can apply raw digester
>> effluent
>> > without dilution but doesn't say the amounts that should be added.
>> >
>> > Using Vermicompost the information seems more available but still not
>> sure.
>> > For example I found that you can apply 120 g of vermicompost/ plant
>> (crop)
>> > or 60 g or 10 g to vegetables.....
>> >
>> > So... the information available is some what diverse. I wonder if
>> someone
>> > could share his knowledge when using digester effluent or vermicompost
>> as an
>> > organic fertilizer.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Ivo Oliveira
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 12:00 PM, <
>> > digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Send Digestion mailing list submissions to
>> >>        digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >>
>> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> >>
>> >>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >>
>> >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> >>        digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >>
>> >> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> >>        digestion-owner at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >>
>> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> >> than "Re: Contents of Digestion digest..."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Today's Topics:
>> >>
>> >>   1. Re: Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 29 (David Fulford)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 1
>> >> Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 11:21:31 +0100
>> >> From: David Fulford <davidf at kingdombio.com>
>> >> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
>> >>        <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 29
>> >> Message-ID: <4CB5882B.1040104 at kingdombio.com>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>> >>
>> >>  Listers, Hi
>> >>
>> >> The Ashden Awards <http://www.ashdenawards.org/int_awards> are looking
>> >> for projects on renewable energy to be submitted for a possible award.
>> >> Biogas projects have done well in past years (see the videos listed
>> >> under Ashden Awards on the Biogas Wikispaces
>> >> <http://biogas.wikispaces.com/Videos> page). I have added the two that
>> >> won awards in 2010.
>> >>
>> >> If you think you have, or know of, a project that could be classed as
>> an
>> >> "Energy Champion", that relates to any form of renewable energy do
>> >> consider applying. The deadline for International Awards is fairly
>> tight
>> >> - 19 October, so you need to download the information
>> >> <
>> >>
>> http://www.ashdenawards.org/files/docs/2011/International_EOI_briefing.pdf
>> >> >
>> >> and the forms
>> >> <
>> >>
>> http://www.ashdenawards.org/files/application_form_2010/Ashden_Awards_2011_International_EOI_form.xls
>> >> >
>> >> and fill them in quickly. As well as projects involving biogas, they
>> are
>> >> also looking for projects on the wider subject of biomass, as well as
>> >> solar, hydro and wind, or any system that provides or encourages the
>> use
>> >> of sustainable energy.
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >>
>> >> David Fulford
>> >> --
>> >>
>> >> ********************************************************************
>> >> Dr David Fulford CEnv MEI, 15, Brandon Ave, Woodley, Reading RG5 4PU
>> >> d.j.fulford at btinternet.com <mailto:d.j.fulford at btinternet.com>, Tel:
>> >> +44(0)118 326 9779 Mob: +44(0)7746 806401
>> >> Kingdom Bioenergy Ltd, www.kingdombio.com <http://www.kingdombio.com>,
>> >> davidf at kindombio.com <mailto:davidf at kindombio.com>
>> >>
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>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Digestion mailing list
>> >>
>> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> >> Digestion at bioenergylists.org
>> >>
>> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >>
>> >>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >>
>> >> for more information about digestion, see
>> >> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>> >> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>> >> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> End of Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 31
>> >> ****************************************
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Digestion mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > Digestion at bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more information about digestion, see
>> > Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>> > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>> > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> ***
>> Dr. A.D. Karve
>> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>>
>> *Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com *
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 14:07:45 +0530
>> From: Sumedh Bapat <sumedh.bapat at gmail.com>
>> To: digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40
>> Message-ID:
>>        <AANLkTimwCStXcg7Yf57U8MAVtAXt+C-uK20wEq=GWdZx at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Dear Dr. Karve,
>> I am sorry to comment on this again but I cannot overlook the discrepancy
>> in
>> the information you have provided here..
>>
>> * on October 17 you said :*
>> "In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic organisms do not
>> digest the dung directly and that they need the help of other organisms to
>> digest it, one cannot accept that dung is the food of the methanogens. It
>> is
>> like saying that manure applied to a field is human food, because through
>> a
>> number of biological processes it ultimately ends up into products, which
>> the humans eat."
>>
>> *on October 24 you said :*
>> "According to text book knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced about
>> 30,000 litres (or 30 cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas
>> plant
>> produces 540 cubic meters of it."
>>
>>
>> I also happen to notice that both the subjects refer to cow dung. Now it
>> can
>> be seen that you claim that some other plant is generating 540 times more
>> gas than your plants.
>> Do you mean that this 540 m3 gas that you saw, is produced by Methanogens
>> which have consumed other similar organisms from the biogas plant , which
>> in
>> turn had "eaten" the Cpw Dung ?
>> Can you please explain the sudden Biogas Generation manifold increase
>> from 30 m3 (conventionally known) to 540 m3 ?
>> *Again* _ Can you please provide a basis for such a finding ?
>>
>> Kind Regards,
>> Sumedh Bapat
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 12:30 AM, <
>> digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Send Digestion mailing list submissions to
>> >        digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> >
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> >        digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>> >        digestion-owner at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> > than "Re: Contents of Digestion digest..."
>> >
>> >
>> > Today's Topics:
>> >
>> >   1. Re: Attachment to previous Article - More scientific based
>> >      research and questions (Anand Karve)
>> >
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 02:43:13 +0800
>> > From: Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com>
>> > To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
>> >        <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [Digestion] Attachment to previous Article - More
>> >        scientific based research and questions
>> > Message-ID:
>> >        <AANLkTi=qxog1xd-4Q9JOwVaNpL8S=Bgpc2n=JxY7R5a=@mail.gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>> >
>> > Dear Dr. Martin,
>> > I have just returned from a city called Wardha, where I attended a
>> workshop
>> > arranged jointly by the Research Councils of UK and the Department of
>> > Science and Technology, Government of India. About 20 scientists each
>> from
>> > UK and India were invited to this meeting.
>> > In the course of field visits organised during the workshop, Dr. Soham
>> > Pandya, The Director of Centre of Science for Villages, an NGO in
>> Wardha,
>> > showed us an amazing biogas plant on his campus. This biogas plant
>> accepts
>> > about 1000 kg cattle dung as a one-time load and produces daily about 3
>> > cubic meters of biogas, continuously over a period of about 180 days.
>>  This
>> > is not the only biogas plant constructed by him. Using funds from the
>> > Department of Science and Technology, He has constructed a similar
>> biogas
>> > plant in another place called Hingoli, where a one-time load  of 1000 kg
>> > dung yields biogas continuously for 6 months, to run an electricity
>> > generator for daily 3 to 4 hours, to provide electric lighting to all
>> the
>> > houses in the village.  Officials of the Department of Science and
>> > Technology vouched for the veracity of these claims. According to text
>> book
>> > knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced about 30,000 litres (or 30
>> > cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas plant produces 540
>> cubic
>> > meters of it.
>> > Neither Dr. Pandya nor any other scientist could give a
>> > scientific explanation to this phenomenally high yield of biogas. Dung
>> of
>> > Indian cattle consists mainly of lignin (from the veins and midribs of
>> the
>> > grass and leaves that they feed on) and micro-organisms. One has to
>> assume
>> > in this case, that there are microbes in the dung that feed on the
>> lignin
>> > and that the methanogens digested the lignin eating microbes.
>> > Yours
>> > A.D.Karve
>> >
>> > On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Duncan Martin <duncanjmartin at gmail.com
>> > >wrote:
>> >
>> > > Perhaps Dr Karve & I should agree to disagree?
>> > >
>> > > To argue that dung is not food for the methanogens because they need
>> help
>> > > to digest it is really a semantic quibble. It misses the point I was
>> > > responding to - that the digestion process is not *completed *by the
>> act
>> > > of defaecation, it is merely *terminated* for the owner of the gut in
>> > > question.
>> > >
>> > > I have never seen any serious literature suggesting that microbes are
>> > > altruistic. However, the principles of commensalism are well
>> established
>> > and
>> > > I see no basis for dismissing them. Moreover, the complex web of
>> > metabolic
>> > > interactions in AD has been extensively researched and is pretty well
>> > > understood - though I am sure there is more to discover.
>> > >
>> > > Nor have I seen any literature whatsoever suggesting that the
>> methanogens
>> > > consume other microorganisms. I would be intrigued to see a proposed
>> > > mechanism.
>> > >
>> > > To dismiss all the textbooks as wrong (see previous postings) is
>> > unhelpful,
>> > > at best. Who could only say that unless he had read every one of them?
>> Of
>> > > course, there are mistakes - even in the best books - if only because
>> > > science moves on, so any book becomes outdated. And there are indeed
>> some
>> > > layman's guides to AD that include some odd ideas - but who would take
>> > them
>> > > as serious guides to the science?
>> > >
>> > > When we find such errors, let us use this forum to report them -
>> giving
>> > > exact references. But lets not confuse newcomers to the field by
>> > dismissing
>> > > every other source of information as rubbish.
>> > >
>> > > Finally, let us accept that each of us is entitled to his opinion -
>> but
>> > > lets reserve this forum for the fruits of practical experience and
>> > > evidence-based information.
>> > >
>> > > I suggest we draw a line under the present debate.
>> > >
>> > > Duncan Martin, PhD, MCIWM, MIChemE, MIEI
>> > > Cloughjordan Ecovillage
>> > > Ireland
>> > >
>> > > On 17 October 2010 16:39, Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Dear Duncan,
>> > >> I dont believe in the theory of a chain of micro-organisms, with one
>> > >> species converting the cellulose into glucose, another converting the
>> > >> glucose into an organic acid (e.g. citric acid), still another
>> > converting
>> > >> the organic acid into acetic acid and ultimately the acetic acid
>> being
>> > >> converted by the methanogenic organisms into carbon dioxide and
>> methane.
>> > If
>> > >> this were true, one would have by now isolated the organism that
>> > converted
>> > >> cellulose into glucose and used the glucose to produce alcohol.
>> > Cellulose is
>> > >> the most ubiquitously found organic compount in the world and with
>> this
>> > >> simple process, one would have produced unlimited quantity of liquid
>> > fuel.
>> > >> But even today, the conversion of cellulose into glucose is achieved
>> in
>> > any
>> > >> industrial process by using a cellulolytic enzyme extracted from a
>> > >> cellulolytic organism. The reason for this is, that the glucose
>> > converted by
>> > >> the organism from cellulose is consumed by the same organism. And
>> once
>> > it is
>> > >> consumed by an organism, it is converted into its cell all the way
>> down
>> > to
>> > >> carbon dioxide. The micro-organisms in the gut of an animal cannot be
>> > >> expected to be so altruistic as to predigest the food and suply it to
>> > the
>> > >> methanogens. I feel that the methanogenic organisms consume the
>> fellow
>> > >> micro-organisms in the gut of animals and digest them to produce
>> methane
>> > and
>> > >> carbon dioxide. Such dog-eat-dog reactions occur also in the soil
>> > supplied
>> > >> with organic matter.
>> > >>         In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic
>> organisms
>> > >> do not digest the dung directly and that they need the help of other
>> > >> organisms to digest it, one cannot accept that dung is the food of
>> the
>> > >> methanogens. It is like saying that manure applied to a field is
>> human
>> > food,
>> > >> because through a number of biological processes it ultimately ends
>> up
>> > into
>> > >> products, which the humans eat.
>> > >> Yours
>> > >> A.D.Karve
>> > >>   On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Duncan Martin <
>> > duncanjmartin at gmail.com
>> > >> > wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Yes, the gut methanogens do, in a sense, eat what the animal eats.
>> > >>> However, it would be more accurate to say that their diet is derived
>> > from
>> > >>> what the animal eats. The methanogens in the gut of a cow are
>> > surrounded by
>> > >>> celluose and other biopolymers but they cannot digest them. They
>> live
>> > on the
>> > >>> waste products of other microbial processes. The web of metabolic
>> > >>> interactions is well known.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Where I would "hoot out" Dr Karve is his belief that dung cannot
>> serve
>> > as
>> > >>> food for the methanogens because they are "thrown out" of the body
>> > along
>> > >>> with the dung. I don't understand the logic here.
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> Digestion mailing list
>> > >>
>> > >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > >> Digestion at bioenergylists.org
>> > >>
>> > >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> > >>
>> > >> for more information about digestion, see
>> > >> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>> > >> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>> > >> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Digestion mailing list
>> > >
>> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > > Digestion at bioenergylists.org
>> > >
>> > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> > >
>> > > for more information about digestion, see
>> > > Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>> > > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>> > > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > ***
>> > Dr. A.D. Karve
>> > President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>> >
>> > *Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com *
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>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Digestion mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > Digestion at bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more information about digestion, see
>> > Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>> > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>> > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > End of Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40
>> > ****************************************
>> >
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 17:31:10 +0800
>> From: Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com>
>> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
>>        <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40
>> Message-ID:
>>        <AANLkTinpeuNYs446hbVAu2o5Dz17v9U6jCgyhkhgKxkO at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Dear Mr. Bapat,
>> the biogas plant in Wardha, which accepts 1000 kg cattle dung as a
>> one-time
>> load and produces daily 3 cubic meter biogas continuously over a period of
>> 180 days, was an absolutely novel system to me. In fact that is why I
>> reported it, because I felt that somebody in the AD discussion group
>> maight
>> know more about it. Since neither the British scientists nor any of the
>> Indian scientists present there could give a scientific explanation to
>> this
>> phenomenon, I have ventured a plausible explanation. The Archaea are a
>> very
>> ancient group of organisms. Lignin is produced by green plants, which
>> evolved much later. Therefore the methanogens cannot digest lignin. The
>> fact
>> that in Wardha, this particular biogas plant was producing almost 18 times
>> as much biogas as would be expected, can be explained by the assumption
>> that lignin was being digested by some other organisms and the products of
>> the lignin digesting organisms were being made available to the
>> mehanogens. But the speculation that some species of organisms conduct
>> extra-cellular digestion of cellulose or lignin, and make the products
>> of such digestion available to the methanogens, is not acceptable to me,
>> because if such were really the case, one would have used such organisms
>> to
>> produce sugars from lignocellulosic material and then obtained alcohol
>> from
>> these sugars. Since nobody has succeeded in doing this, I feel that the
>> organisms that digest cellulose or lignin consume the sugars themselves
>> and
>> multiply their own numbers, and that the methanogens consume these
>> microbes
>> to produce methane. I am ready to accept any other explanation, if it is
>> logical.
>> Yours
>> A.D.Karve
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Sumedh Bapat <sumedh.bapat at gmail.com
>> >wrote:
>>
>> > Dear Dr. Karve,
>> > I am sorry to comment on this again but I cannot overlook the
>> discrepancy
>> > in the information you have provided here..
>> >
>> > * on October 17 you said :*
>> > "In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic organisms do not
>> > digest the dung directly and that they need the help of other organisms
>> to
>> > digest it, one cannot accept that dung is the food of the methanogens.
>> It is
>> > like saying that manure applied to a field is human food, because
>> through a
>> > number of biological processes it ultimately ends up into products,
>> which
>> > the humans eat."
>> >
>> > *on October 24 you said :*
>> > "According to text book knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced
>> about
>> > 30,000 litres (or 30 cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas
>> plant
>> > produces 540 cubic meters of it."
>> >
>> >
>> > I also happen to notice that both the subjects refer to cow dung.
>> > Now it can be seen that you claim that some other plant is generating
>> 540
>> > times more gas than your plants.
>> > Do you mean that this 540 m3 gas that you saw, is produced by
>> Methanogens
>> > which have consumed other similar organisms from the biogas plant ,
>> which in
>> > turn had "eaten" the Cpw Dung ?
>> > Can you please explain the sudden Biogas Generation manifold increase
>> > from 30 m3 (conventionally known) to 540 m3 ?
>> > *Again* _ Can you please provide a basis for such a finding ?
>> >
>> > Kind Regards,
>> > Sumedh Bapat
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 12:30 AM, <
>> > digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Send Digestion mailing list submissions to
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>> >>
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>> >> than "Re: Contents of Digestion digest..."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Today's Topics:
>> >>
>> >>   1. Re: Attachment to previous Article - More scientific based
>> >>      research and questions (Anand Karve)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 1
>> >> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 02:43:13 +0800
>> >> From: Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com>
>> >> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
>> >>        <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Attachment to previous Article - More
>> >>        scientific based research and questions
>> >> Message-ID:
>> >>        <AANLkTi=qxog1xd-4Q9JOwVaNpL8S=Bgpc2n=JxY7R5a=@mail.gmail.com>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>> >>
>> >> Dear Dr. Martin,
>> >> I have just returned from a city called Wardha, where I attended a
>> >> workshop
>> >> arranged jointly by the Research Councils of UK and the Department of
>> >> Science and Technology, Government of India. About 20 scientists each
>> from
>> >> UK and India were invited to this meeting.
>> >> In the course of field visits organised during the workshop, Dr. Soham
>> >> Pandya, The Director of Centre of Science for Villages, an NGO in
>> Wardha,
>> >> showed us an amazing biogas plant on his campus. This biogas plant
>> accepts
>> >> about 1000 kg cattle dung as a one-time load and produces daily about 3
>> >> cubic meters of biogas, continuously over a period of about 180 days.
>> >>  This
>> >> is not the only biogas plant constructed by him. Using funds from the
>> >> Department of Science and Technology, He has constructed a similar
>> biogas
>> >> plant in another place called Hingoli, where a one-time load  of 1000
>> kg
>> >> dung yields biogas continuously for 6 months, to run an electricity
>> >> generator for daily 3 to 4 hours, to provide electric lighting to all
>> the
>> >> houses in the village.  Officials of the Department of Science and
>> >> Technology vouched for the veracity of these claims. According to text
>> >> book
>> >> knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced about 30,000 litres (or 30
>> >> cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas plant produces 540
>> cubic
>> >> meters of it.
>> >> Neither Dr. Pandya nor any other scientist could give a
>> >> scientific explanation to this phenomenally high yield of biogas. Dung
>> of
>> >> Indian cattle consists mainly of lignin (from the veins and midribs of
>> the
>> >> grass and leaves that they feed on) and micro-organisms. One has to
>> assume
>> >> in this case, that there are microbes in the dung that feed on the
>> lignin
>> >> and that the methanogens digested the lignin eating microbes.
>> >> Yours
>> >> A.D.Karve
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Duncan Martin <
>> duncanjmartin at gmail.com
>> >> >wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Perhaps Dr Karve & I should agree to disagree?
>> >> >
>> >> > To argue that dung is not food for the methanogens because they need
>> >> help
>> >> > to digest it is really a semantic quibble. It misses the point I was
>> >> > responding to - that the digestion process is not *completed *by the
>> act
>> >> > of defaecation, it is merely *terminated* for the owner of the gut in
>> >> > question.
>> >> >
>> >> > I have never seen any serious literature suggesting that microbes are
>> >> > altruistic. However, the principles of commensalism are well
>> established
>> >> and
>> >> > I see no basis for dismissing them. Moreover, the complex web of
>> >> metabolic
>> >> > interactions in AD has been extensively researched and is pretty well
>> >> > understood - though I am sure there is more to discover.
>> >> >
>> >> > Nor have I seen any literature whatsoever suggesting that the
>> >> methanogens
>> >> > consume other microorganisms. I would be intrigued to see a proposed
>> >> > mechanism.
>> >> >
>> >> > To dismiss all the textbooks as wrong (see previous postings) is
>> >> unhelpful,
>> >> > at best. Who could only say that unless he had read every one of
>> them?
>> >> Of
>> >> > course, there are mistakes - even in the best books - if only because
>> >> > science moves on, so any book becomes outdated. And there are indeed
>> >> some
>> >> > layman's guides to AD that include some odd ideas - but who would
>> take
>> >> them
>> >> > as serious guides to the science?
>> >> >
>> >> > When we find such errors, let us use this forum to report them -
>> giving
>> >> > exact references. But lets not confuse newcomers to the field by
>> >> dismissing
>> >> > every other source of information as rubbish.
>> >> >
>> >> > Finally, let us accept that each of us is entitled to his opinion -
>> but
>> >> > lets reserve this forum for the fruits of practical experience and
>> >> > evidence-based information.
>> >> >
>> >> > I suggest we draw a line under the present debate.
>> >> >
>> >> > Duncan Martin, PhD, MCIWM, MIChemE, MIEI
>> >> > Cloughjordan Ecovillage
>> >> > Ireland
>> >> >
>> >> > On 17 October 2010 16:39, Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Dear Duncan,
>> >> >> I dont believe in the theory of a chain of micro-organisms, with one
>> >> >> species converting the cellulose into glucose, another converting
>> the
>> >> >> glucose into an organic acid (e.g. citric acid), still another
>> >> converting
>> >> >> the organic acid into acetic acid and ultimately the acetic acid
>> being
>> >> >> converted by the methanogenic organisms into carbon dioxide and
>> >> methane. If
>> >> >> this were true, one would have by now isolated the organism that
>> >> converted
>> >> >> cellulose into glucose and used the glucose to produce alcohol.
>> >> Cellulose is
>> >> >> the most ubiquitously found organic compount in the world and with
>> this
>> >> >> simple process, one would have produced unlimited quantity of liquid
>> >> fuel.
>> >> >> But even today, the conversion of cellulose into glucose is achieved
>> in
>> >> any
>> >> >> industrial process by using a cellulolytic enzyme extracted from a
>> >> >> cellulolytic organism. The reason for this is, that the glucose
>> >> converted by
>> >> >> the organism from cellulose is consumed by the same organism. And
>> once
>> >> it is
>> >> >> consumed by an organism, it is converted into its cell all the way
>> down
>> >> to
>> >> >> carbon dioxide. The micro-organisms in the gut of an animal cannot
>> be
>> >> >> expected to be so altruistic as to predigest the food and suply it
>> to
>> >> the
>> >> >> methanogens. I feel that the methanogenic organisms consume the
>> fellow
>> >> >> micro-organisms in the gut of animals and digest them to produce
>> >> methane and
>> >> >> carbon dioxide. Such dog-eat-dog reactions occur also in the soil
>> >> supplied
>> >> >> with organic matter.
>> >> >>         In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic
>> >> organisms
>> >> >> do not digest the dung directly and that they need the help of other
>> >> >> organisms to digest it, one cannot accept that dung is the food of
>> the
>> >> >> methanogens. It is like saying that manure applied to a field is
>> human
>> >> food,
>> >> >> because through a number of biological processes it ultimately ends
>> up
>> >> into
>> >> >> products, which the humans eat.
>> >> >> Yours
>> >> >> A.D.Karve
>> >> >>   On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Duncan Martin <
>> >> duncanjmartin at gmail.com
>> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Yes, the gut methanogens do, in a sense, eat what the animal eats.
>> >> >>> However, it would be more accurate to say that their diet is
>> derived
>> >> from
>> >> >>> what the animal eats. The methanogens in the gut of a cow are
>> >> surrounded by
>> >> >>> celluose and other biopolymers but they cannot digest them. They
>> live
>> >> on the
>> >> >>> waste products of other microbial processes. The web of metabolic
>> >> >>> interactions is well known.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Where I would "hoot out" Dr Karve is his belief that dung cannot
>> serve
>> >> as
>> >> >>> food for the methanogens because they are "thrown out" of the body
>> >> along
>> >> >>> with the dung. I don't understand the logic here.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Digestion mailing list
>> >> >>
>> >> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> >> >> Digestion at bioenergylists.org
>> >> >>
>> >> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >> >>
>> >> >> for more information about digestion, see
>> >> >> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>> >> >> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>> >> >> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Digestion mailing list
>> >> >
>> >> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> >> > Digestion at bioenergylists.org
>> >> >
>> >> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >> >
>> >> > for more information about digestion, see
>> >> > Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>> >> > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>> >> > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> ***
>> >> Dr. A.D. Karve
>> >> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>> >>
>> >> *Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com*
>> >> -------------- next part --------------
>> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>> >>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20101024/49a74dc6/attachment-0001.html
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Digestion mailing list
>> >>
>> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> >> Digestion at bioenergylists.org
>> >>
>> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >>
>> >>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >>
>> >> for more information about digestion, see
>> >> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>> >> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>> >> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> End of Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40
>> >> ****************************************
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Digestion mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > Digestion at bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more information about digestion, see
>> > Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>> > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>> > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> ***
>> Dr. A.D. Karve
>> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>>
>> *Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com *
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Digestion mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> for more information about digestion, see
>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>>
>>
>>
>> End of Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 41
>> ****************************************
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Kind Regards,
>
>
> *Sumedh Bapat
> +919881090693 / +919879110924*
>
> *Excellent Renewable Pvt. Ltd.
> *(formerly known as Excel Electricals Pvt. Ltd.)
> Excel Estate, Vashier,
> Valsad, Gujarat 396001
> India
> Phone: +91 2632 227277, 227279
> Fax:    +91 2632 227470
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Digestion mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> for more information about digestion, see
> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>
>
>


-- 
***
Dr. A.D. Karve
President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)

*Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com *
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