[Digestion] Contents of digestion digest
Randy Mott
randymott at ceeres.eu
Sun Jan 2 02:30:01 CST 2011
CO2 equivalents are too variable to calculate that way. It depends on the "baseline", i.e. what methane would otherwise go into the artmosphere. Huge diffierence between landfilling and land application of the waste as fertilizer, for example.
I am working on getting the CDM calculations for diverting waste to biogas dsone in a spreadsheet, that will automatically do the calculations when you enter the variables in each case. No one has done this.
We moght want to sell it for a small fee, but it will be done in February.
Randy Mott
CEERES
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Rucks" <water.alchemy.ltd at clear.net.nz>
To: <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2011 8:53 AM
Subject: [Digestion] Contents of digestion digest
> Greeting all
> I always find it refreshing to receive answers to my enquiries !! even
> though it create a lot more questions. The universe is full of answers, we
> just need to better understand the real skill in asking the right questions.
> (sorry for that burst of philosophical bleating)
>
> I understand all the information relating to % of methane and the ratios of
> CO2 to other gasses in my biogas and the methods on how it is produced and
> so on and so forth - but surly some one has a rough idea there is a net
> energy requirement to produce and set amount of energy (via fossil fuel
> energy generation) and if you produce/utilise a renewable energy source like
> biogas from human and waste vegetable (dinner leftovers.
>
> Some one must have a idea on that very simple equation 1000 - 10 m3 of
> biogas is equal to 1 tonne of co2 equivalents ??????
> We will never build a large multiple of these system unless we have a idea
> on that ratio - an surly building lots of small systems will benefit lots
> more people - than big companies - the big companies have got us into this
> predetermine that we find our selves in !!!
> Regards
>
> Bill Rucks
> Water Alchemy ltd
> New Zealand
> + 64 3 544 9148
> + 64 21 258 2063
> water.alchemy.ltd at clear.net.nz
> www.wateralchemy.co.nz
>
> "how is it possible that the impossible is not only possible but
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: digestion-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:digestion-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of
> digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Sent: Wednesday, 22 December 2010 9:00 a.m.
> To: digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Digestion Digest, Vol 4, Issue 14
>
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. FW: Biogas and CO2 equivalents (Paul Harris)
> 2. Re: FW: Biogas and CO2 equivalents (James Fidell)
> 3. Re: FW: Biogas and CO2 equivalents (Randy Mott)
> 4. Re: FW: Biogas and CO2 equivalents (David)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 20:35:41 +1030
> From: "Paul Harris" <paul.harris at adelaide.edu.au>
> To: "'For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion'"
> <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: [Digestion] FW: Biogas and CO2 equivalents
> Message-ID: <002901cba0f6$a3bbe470$eb33ad50$@harris at adelaide.edu.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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> Mr. Paul Harris, Room S116b, Waite Main Building Faculty of Sciences, The
> University of Adelaide, Waite Campus, PMB 1, Glen Osmond SA 5064 Ph : +61
> 8 8303 7880 Fax : +61 8 8303 4386
> <mailto:paul.harris at adelaide.edu.au> mailto:paul.harris at adelaide.edu.au
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> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/directory/paul.harris
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> From: Bill Rucks [mailto:water.alchemy.ltd at clear.net.nz]
> Sent: Tuesday, 21 December 2010 8:41 AM
> To: paul.harris at adelaide.edu.au
> Subject: Biogas and CO2 equivalents
>
>
>
> Greetings Paul
>
> I have been receiving all the digester list emails - it is always good
> reading.
>
> I have a question - and not sure how to post it !!
>
> How do you convert M3 of biogas produced to CO2 equivalents or Carbon
> Credits - is it 1000 m3 = 1 tonne of CO2 equivalents ?? of 100 m3 of biogas
> to 1 tonne of CO2 equivalents and we don't have to be to precise, just
> general !!
>
>
>
> This is why:
>
> I have a project in PNG
>
> Were I have installed one of my Digesters into a domestic house ( which I
> personal financed with another PNG group/company)
>
> This system has been going for 3 months or so - and is constantly producing
> 10 m3 per month of burnable gas ( which is used for hoses hold
> cooking/lighting ) these house have electrical stoves and this electrical
> usage ( produced via mineral diesel electrical energy production) is been
> replaced by biogas. Which is about 330 or sol lts of gas per day and they
> use around 200lts per day for all there cooking lighting requirements. So it
> is working well !!! it real cool - much better than my New Zealand
> Digesters. Bloody New Zealand weather !!!!!
>
> I have a JV company getting developed there and the JV company will be
> building these system on mass into PNG - but I would like to get some carbon
> financing and carbon credits for the energy that we have off set - in some
> regions we will be offsetting electrical, LPG and wood burning for energy
> production. I am a good micro digester technologist but not a good Carbon
> analysts - who should we be talking to for the carbon side of things and
> how much would it cost to get certification of the process to get carbon
> credits, and who do we apply to get some carbon financing to assist in the
> rollout of these systems. The more money the more system will get built.
>
>
>
> Sorry for so many questions so close to Christmas
>
>
>
> Bill Rucks
>
> Water Alchemy ltd
>
> New Zealand
>
> + 64 3 544 9148
>
> + 64 21 258 2063
>
> water.alchemy.ltd at clear.net.nz
>
> www.wateralchemy.co.nz
>
>
>
> "how is it possible that the impossible is not only possible but
> inevitable"!!
>
> This message is intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain
> information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure
> under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended
> recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
> copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received
> this e-mail in error, please notify us immediately by return e-mail and
> delete this e-mail and all attachments from your system.
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> ------------------------------
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> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 12:06:56 +0000
> From: James Fidell <james at fidell.co.uk>
> To: digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Re: [Digestion] FW: Biogas and CO2 equivalents
> Message-ID: <4D109860.2000802 at fidell.co.uk>
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>
>> How do you convert M3 of biogas produced to CO2 equivalents or Carbon
>> Credits - is it 1000 m3 = 1 tonne of CO2 equivalents ?? of 100 m3 of
> biogas
>> to 1 tonne of CO2 equivalents and we don't have to be to precise, just
>> general !!
>
> I'm only familiar with the UK metrics because they're the ones I'm
> dealing with at the moment, but in the case of biogas I'd imagine
> they're very similar all over the world (some energy sources have
> different metrics between countries and even for different areas of the
> same country).
>
> The biogas figure I have comes from the 2010 DEFRA/DECC GHG metrics and
> gives 2040kg of CO2 equivalents per tonne or 0.246kgCO2e per kWh (net
> CV) of biogas as a mixture of 60% CH4 and 40% CO2. I don't have figures
> for emissions by volume, but my schoolboy chemistry suggests that's
> likely to be more difficult given the need to account for variations in
> temperature and pressure.
>
> James
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 13:35:51 +0100
> From: "Randy Mott" <randymott at ceeres.eu>
> To: "'For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion'"
> <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Digestion] FW: Biogas and CO2 equivalents
> Message-ID: <004201cba10b$9b759e40$d260dac0$@ceeres.eu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> You cannot simply use the methane destroyed to derive credits. You have to
> demonstrate that the methane destroyed would have otherwise gone into the
> atmosphere. So a 1 MW biogas plant that actually destroys 116,000 tons of
> CO2 equivalents a year, will typically receive only about 20-40,000tons of
> actual credit. There are elaborate formulas for this calculation .....
>
> See http://cdm.unfccc.int/methodologies/index.html
>
> Randy Mott
> CEERES
> Warsaw
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: digestion-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:digestion-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of James
> Fidell
> Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 1:07 PM
> To: digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Re: [Digestion] FW: Biogas and CO2 equivalents
>
>> How do you convert M3 of biogas produced to CO2 equivalents or Carbon
>> Credits - is it 1000 m3 = 1 tonne of CO2 equivalents ?? of 100 m3 of
>> biogas to 1 tonne of CO2 equivalents and we don't have to be to
>> precise, just general !!
>
> I'm only familiar with the UK metrics because they're the ones I'm dealing
> with at the moment, but in the case of biogas I'd imagine they're very
> similar all over the world (some energy sources have different metrics
> between countries and even for different areas of the same country).
>
> The biogas figure I have comes from the 2010 DEFRA/DECC GHG metrics and
> gives 2040kg of CO2 equivalents per tonne or 0.246kgCO2e per kWh (net
> CV) of biogas as a mixture of 60% CH4 and 40% CO2. I don't have figures for
> emissions by volume, but my schoolboy chemistry suggests that's likely to be
> more difficult given the need to account for variations in temperature and
> pressure.
>
> James
>
> _______________________________________________
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> for more information about digestion, see Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 10:02:20 -0800
> From: David <david at h4c.org>
> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
> <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Digestion] FW: Biogas and CO2 equivalents
> Message-ID: <4D10EBAC.8010800 at h4c.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
>
>
> Friends,
>
> On 12/21/2010 4:35 AM, Randy Mott wrote:
>> You cannot simply use the methane destroyed to derive credits. You have to
> demonstrate that the methane destroyed would have otherwise gone into the
> atmosphere. So a 1 MW biogas plant that actually destroys 116,000 tons of
> CO2 equivalents a year, will typically receive only about 20-40,000 tons of
> actual credit. There are elaborate formulas for this calculation .....
>>
>> See http://cdm.unfccc.int/methodologies/index.html
>
> To add to what Randy said, of course we all realize that carbon
> credits are a very unusual currency, because they are based on what is
> specifically not there. That is, one gains credit for CO2 equivalents
> that are /not/ produced. Thus the question becomes "How does one
> demonstrate that what has been done has resulted in a reduction in CO2
> equivalent emissions?"
>
> Ordinarily, then, the process is first to document the current
> situation at some depth in specified ways. For example, one might
> demonstrate that a certain amount of firewood and kerosene is being
> used on a per capita basis through a given region for cooking and
> lighting. Then one would need to demonstrate that some portion or all
> of the firewood is "non-renewable biomass", NRB. (That is, for
> example, the forests from which it comes are for the most part not
> replanted nor do they regrow naturally, so the CO2 released when the
> wood is burned is not being recaptured locally/regionally in new
> forest biomass.) Assume, for example, that half the firewood is NRB.
> In that case, half the CO2 released from burning wood for cooking can
> be counted as emissions, and of course all the CO2 from the kerosene.
>
> Then one postulates or provides a given number of biogas digesters to
> those in the area of interest. Again using specified methods, one
> would need to demonstrate that people have certain numbers of animals
> of certain kinds, and thus taking into account the regional climate
> and similar factors, each digester can be expected to produce a
> certain amount of biogas, which will then in turn replace a certain
> amount of firewood and kerosene for cooking and lighting. Based on
> those surveys, methods, measures and calculations, one makes an
> assertion about the amount of emissions avoided. To that figure,
> depending, one might also add (as Randy indicated) methane emissions
> avoided because an assumed (demonstrated) amount of dung or kitchen
> waste or what-have-you is not going anaerobic "in the wild".
>
> There is, likewise, considerable concern in the international
> community about what is called "additionality". That means that where,
> say, the credits are from the Clean Development Mechanism
> <http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2009/12/credit-where-c
> redit-is-due-understanding-the-clean-development-mechanism>
> (which apparently will continue beyond 2012, based on what happened in
> Cancun), the UNFCCC wants to make sure that whatever is being proposed
> to be done to reduce emissions could not otherwise be done without the
> credits. To say it another way, where a project is self-sustaining
> regardless, it cannot qualify for credits.
>
> The processes established for producing credits are detailed, rigorous
> and complex because the agency or organization must maintain
> credibility. The only source of the value which the credits may
> maintain derives from trust. If that trust is corroded, the associated
> value is corroded. And second, the processes used may, to some, appear
> bureaucratic, but here likewise there is good reason, which is that
> everyone must be treated the same way, and so everyone must follow the
> same process, even if that process is not well suited to the needs or
> ideas of some applicants.
>
> There are, as well, many different kinds of credits: UNFCCC provides
> one kind, called a compliance credit, because it is produced under
> international agreements supported by regulations in the country of
> interest. There are also voluntary credits, perhaps the best of which
> is the Gold Standard <http://www.cdmgoldstandard.org/>. (In fact, one
> can apply for both CDM and Gold Standard, although this will not
> result in having duplicated credits, although it will result in having
> credits that are seen in some contexts as being more valuable.)
>
> Finally, it would not make sense to apply for carbon credits on the
> basis of one household digester. Like any similar process, the process
> of applying for carbon credits has fixed and variable costs, and the
> fixed costs of applying for carbon credits are substantial enough that
> it would make little sense for a project developer to apply for them
> where only a few credits will result. There are, likewise, minimums
> that apply within the agencies and organizations that tender the credits.
>
> Thus a single very (very) large digester may qualify, but when dealing
> with digesters as small as household digesters, it will usually only
> make sense to apply for credits if there are going to be a large
> number of them. Carbon credits for biogas are a strategy useful where
> a fairly large effort is being made, implying significant funding, a
> sufficiently-sized organization on the ground and so on.
>
>
>
> d.
> --
> David William House
> "The Complete Biogas Handbook" |www.completebiogas.com|
> /Vahid Biogas/, an alternative energy consultancy |www.vahidbiogas.com
>
> |
> "Make no search for water. But find thirst,
> And water from the very ground will burst."
> (Rumi, a Persian mystic poet, quoted in /Delight of Hearts/, p. 77)
>
> http://bahai.us/
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> for more information about digestion, see
> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
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>
>
> End of Digestion Digest, Vol 4, Issue 14
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> for more information about digestion, see
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> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
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