[Gasification] Where is Everyone? - 4 houses off grid

Tue Jan 3 18:56:51 CST 2017

Paul,

5,000 hours has as much to do with longevity as actual use. Most small scale
gasifiers have not run more than 1000 hours in their lifetime. A gasifier
built for 5,000 hours per year should be expected to last a few years. 

Location. US/Canada West coast woodlands. 46-52 degrees latitude. 3000
heating degree days. 100 cooling degree days. 

We can get lost in loads. The PV folks have done a great job of residential
load characterization and control. Let's stick with 5 kW per household and
20 kWe for a collection of four in a micro-grid. At this time let's ignore
price. What gasifier based microgrid systems are available? Gasifiers often
work best at or above some baseload. Wind, solar and diesel are clearly
options for integration.

Cleanspark microgrid http://www.cleanspark.com/ seems to be a new supplier
with a Stratean XG4500 gasifier. No capacity indicated.  Tested 12/15 on
wood pellets.

https://microgridknowledge.com/microgrids-on-clean-baseload/

http://tylerlybbert.com/?p=258

From: Gasification [mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On
Behalf Of Paul Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2017 1:55 PM
To: gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Where is Everyone? - 4 houses off grid

Tom M.,

The mention of 5000 hours/yr is an average of 14 hrs per day.   But how much
power do they need?   Minimum expectations, average, and maximum and peak
requirements are all very different.   If the 4 houses want 20 kW each, that
is different from power for basic LED lighting and fans in gas heating and a
refrigerator running.   5 kW max and 3 to 4 kW sustained for 14 hours is
withing reach.

What did your requester specify?    Any mention of the available biomass?
In what climatic region?    Summer houses in Wisconsin that are only
occupied for 4 to 8 months are different from Alaska 12 month residences.

ANY size of operational system will find some people who will want it.
Then the question becomes the price they are willing to pay.

Paul

Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu> 
Skype:   paultlud    Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website:  www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com> 

On 1/3/2017 1:42 PM, Tom Miles wrote:

Tom,

My request is technology agnostic at this point.  Any style of pyrolysis or
gasification are welcome. I'm looking for small, reliable, and maintainable.
What manufactured gasifier system can deliver power to four houses in a
microgrid for 5,000 hours per year? The fuel form and moisture is an
essential part of the geometry of the reactor. We can make the fuel to suit.
Over the years we have seen several small scale systems which have not gone
beyond one or two units. Are there other suppliers, like the ones mentioned,
where you can find systems which have operated for 5,000 hours or year or
more? Are there gasifiers that have been integrated into microgrid systems
with diesel, wind, or solar?  

Thanks

Tom

From: Gasification [mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On
Behalf Of l
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2017 8:53 AM
To: gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org
<mailto:gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org> 
Subject: SPAM: Re: [Gasification] Where is Everyone?

Tom Miles,
    You might want to paint somewhat a more complete picture, the
"successful" units may need to be fed less than 10% moisture wood, less than
3% fines, which is a rarefied wood source indeed. Most are also reliant on
"filters" that have to be shut down and replaced periodically and a host of
other aspects that reduce the potential in the market. 
    A 20 kw unit by US Standards, is good for one house. 
    If those who wonder what has gone on with the gasification list, perhaps
because of the lack of innovation to reduce the narrowness of the feedstock,
notably this list is primarily focused on downdraft systems, there are
approaches that expand the application base and increase market necessary to
prevent saturation at a low level. 
    Energy prices or availability has repeatedly cycled gasification
applications up and down, from coal fired "town gas" units replaced with
natural gas, to WW II fossil fuel shortages. However, there are applications
not subject to this cyclic effect.  

Sincerely,

Leland T. "Tom" Taylor

Thermogenics Inc. 

+001-505-463-8422 

 <http://www.thermogenicx.com> www.thermogenicx.com

Skype: ltt.invent

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Miles < <mailto:tmiles at trmiles.com> tmiles at trmiles.com>
To: 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification' <
<mailto:gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Sent: Tue, Jan 3, 2017 9:18 am
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Where is Everyone?

I received in inquiry last week from someone looking for a microgrid scale
gasifier to power four homes in a remote off-grid wooded area. What
suppliers do we have for that scale? 

We have seen some reliable systems at a larger scale. All Power Labs
(http://www.allpowerlabs.com/), <http://www.allpowerlabs.com/%29,>  Volter
(volter.fi), Entrada (http://www.entrade.de/) and Spanner
(http://www.holz-kraft.de/en/company/102-spanner-re-2-company) all seem to
be selling refined units at the 20kWe+. Are there others? 

Tom  

From: Gasification [mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
<mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org?> ] On Behalf Of Pete
& Sheri
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2017 7:44 AM
To: 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'
<gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org
<mailto:gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org> >
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Where is Everyone?

Hello Doug.

Re:

"It's a mute point drawing the low price of gasoline into our discussions"

A moot point?

I was only responding to your questioning the lack of traffic to this forum,
not its mission.

Most people spend their discretionary time doing what seems most important
to them, I think.  When gasoline is USD$4.00 per gallon, the idea of
developing or supporting  cheaper alternatives rises higher towards the top
of the to-do list.

Oh- maybe you did mean "mute" point.  In either case, I won't bring it up
again.

Pete Stanaitis

-----------------

From: Gasification [mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On
Behalf Of Doug
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2017 2:33 AM
To: gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org
<mailto:gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org> 
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Where is Everyone?

Hi Pete,

We are only as professional as our need to breath the same air. Because we
all are at different  levels of knowledge, none of us can know how to
answer, or ask questions, due to the differing perspective of how our
interests have "drawn us in". We all share that gasification has such
promise for energy applications, so asking questions or providing answers is
the reason this list was created.

Yes, there have been other groups form to discuss gasification, There are no
short cuts to reliable gasifier performance, but information without
scrutiny can only speak for itself. This Forum and it's extensive collection
of related information, was the first to recognize the need for such
discussions and become available to us all. There never has been any
restriction on who participates, and some very good people have  shared with
us particularly in the earlier years.

It's a mute point drawing the low price of gasoline into our discussions
relating to an alternative for fossil fuels! It's not about the price, but
availability which can change over night, and for me, that means being able
to be self supporting in time of need. NZ has had a reported 32,000 quakes
this last year, plus major storms that destroyed electrical distribution
facilities. Are any of us really prepared for the inconvenience when, not
if, it comes? 

Doug Williams.

On 03/01/17 12:21, Pete & Sheri wrote:

Hello Doug.

I view this list to be for the professional for the most part, so I hesitate
to join in unless I have a question that I can clearly describe.

But I think at least part of the reason for the lack of traffic is that
there are now several other websites that cater to hobbyist and advanced
tinkerer wood-to-electricity crowd:

-Yahoo woodgas group,

-Yahoo charcoal gasifier group

-Wayne Keith's driveonwood.com website

-allpowerlabs.com

And I am sure there are many others.

In addition (although I have been flamed for even mentioning it), gasoline
for USD$2.00 per gallon does take the edge off for many people.  

Pete Stanaitis

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