[Greenbuilding] Spot ERV, or trickle vents in PNW?
Michael O'Brien
obrien at hevanet.com
Mon Feb 21 15:07:46 CST 2011
Hi, David--
Panasonic has a national rep, Don Stevens, who is both knowledgeable about the equipment and a straight shooter. I've known him for over 25 years.
Best,
Mike O'Brien
On Feb 21, 2011, at 12:11 PM, David Posada wrote:
> Has anyone had any experience with the Panasonic Whisper Comfort Spot ERV? It appears to be a less expensive (first cost), and also less efficient in heat recovery than most of the more common HRV/ ERV units. Online prices range from $300 - $450.
>
> We're considering it for a multi unit apartment building in the Pacific NW (4400 hdd) with very small living units. If we want to meet ASHRAE 62.2, we'd need mechanical ventilation (not just pressurized corridor air slipping under the door), about 20 to 25 cfm per unit.
>
> The baseline system might be exhaust-only bathroom ventilation with a trickle vent at the skin, but that raises questions about thermal comfort and heat loads due to infiltration on cold days.
>
> Other more complicated options would involve ducted outside air (and return air) to and from each of the units, so to compare costs and performance we're considering other options.
>
> Any experience with the Spot ERV, trickle vents, or other tickle-ish ideas?
>
> Thanks!
> David Posada
> Portland, Oregon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of greenbuilding-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 9:05 PM
> To: greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 6, Issue 22
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Can a house in cold Edmonton produce as much power as it
> consumes? (Gordon Howell -- Howell Mayhew Engineering)
> 2. Radiant Hot Water? / Re: Zoned Heating Options (Frank Cetera)
> 3. Re: Martha Stewart (Tim Vireo Keating)
> 4. Re: vinegar in wood (Tim Vireo Keating)
> 5. Re: Martha Stewart (Tim Vireo Keating)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 17:01:11 -0700
> From: Gordon Howell -- Howell Mayhew Engineering <ghowell at hme.ca>
> To: Greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: [Greenbuilding] Can a house in cold Edmonton produce as much
> power as it consumes?
> Message-ID:
> <mailman.73.1298091910.8103.greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed
>
>
> =====================
>
> Saving Green Building Green
>
> Can a house in cold Edmonton produce as much power as it consumes?
> Environmentalists are trying
>
> Published February 17, 2011
> by Maurice Tougas
> SEE Magazine
> News & Views
> http://www.seemagazine.com/article/news/news-main/netzero/
>
>
> It?s a cold February morning, with the
> temperature barely nudging -25C. Inside a Mill
> Creek home shared by Conrad Nobert, his wife
> Rechel Amores and their two young children, it?s
> cool but comfortable. Very comfortable, in fact,
> if you take into consideration their home doesn?t have a furnace.
>
> The Nobert-Amores home looks like any other from
> the front, but if you go around the back ? where
> you?ll find a garden and the three different
> fruit trees in the summer months ? you?ll see
> more than 30 solar-electric modules, some on the
> roof, others on movable awnings. It?s all part of
> the Nobert-Amores family?s efforts to make as
> small an imprint on the planet as humanely
> possible, and as a hedge against the future.
>
> It?s what is called a net zero home, one of only
> two in the city, with more in the construction and planning state.
> A net zero building is one that produces all of
> its own energy for heating, lighting ,
> appliances, and hot water on site over the course
> of a year. To do this, the house might draw on
> the power grid during the cold winter months, but
> sell back to the grid during the summer or warmer
> winter days. The net result, if all goes well, is zero.
>
> Whether the Nobert-Amores home ? or the first
> Edmonton net zero home in Riverdale ? has
> achieved actual net zero is not entirely clear.
> Nobert has been scrupulously gauging his energy
> production and use this year, and so far it looks
> promising. Nobert expects they might be able to
> achieve net zero from the period of October 2010 to October 2011.
>
> Saving your pocket book
> ----------------------------
> But even if it doesn?t achieve the net zero
> effect, you have to be envious of his power bill,
> which is about $25 a month, all of which is
> service charges. And, thanks to the absence of a
> furnace, there is no natural gas being used,
> resulting in a remarkable level of savings. To
> gauge how much, just look at your gas bill for a
> month like January, and imagine that entire bill,
> with its laundry list of incomprehensible riders and usage fees, all gone.
>
> Raised by parents who taught him the value of
> conservation, Nobert is a dedicated
> environmentalist (he doesn?t even own a car). He
> and Rechel did everything you can do with their
> previous house, just a few doors down from their
> current house, like replacing windows and improving insulation.
>
> Still, that wasn?t enough.
>
> ?I realized that it was still consuming a huge
> amount of energy,? says Nobert. ?We don?t really
> have a good idea, because it just comes in from a
> pipe in the basement. But the amount of energy used was massive.?
>
> Worried about climate change, and the potential
> for energy scarcity ? one day, he warns, there
> will be no natural gas left ? he and his wife
> decided to go big and go home, and the easiest
> way to do that was to start from scratch. Net
> zero, or even coming close to it, isn?t just a
> matter of improving insulation and using
> energy-efficient appliances. The net zero effort
> begins, literally, from the ground up.
>
> In 2008, he ?deconstructed? a house that stood on
> the site of his current net zero home, saving the
> fir and maple flooring, the brickwork and the
> interior doors for use in the new house.
>
> Now with just a hole in the ground, they planned
> a house that would ?push the envelope? of energy
> conservation, aiming for a net zero house.
>
> Expert Help
> ----------------------------
> This is not the kind of project that one
> undertakes without expert help. And this is where Peter Amerongen comes in.
>
> Amerongen has been designing energy efficient
> houses since the early 1980s. His company,
> Habitat Studio & Workshop, has designed, built or
> renovated about 400 housing projects across
> Western Canada, and is responsible for designing
> Edmonton?s two attempts at net zero homes, first
> in Riverbend and now in Mill Creek.
>
> He acknowledges that the net zero homes in
> Edmonton have yet to reach that elusive goal of
> being a fully net zero, but then, nobody has
> tried to build a net zero house this far north.
>
> ?We were overly complex with the first one, but
> we?ve been able to simplify quite a bit as we?ve
> gone through it. In all of them, aggressive
> conservation has been the starting point.?
>
> So what?s the difference between a new home, no
> matter how energy efficient, and the net zero
> home? There are three key design decisions made
> for the net zero home, which could apply to any
> new home being built, if the owner wants it.
>
> First, the walls are 16 inches thick, filled with
> blown-in cellulose fibre insulation that is made
> with recycled newspapers. A critically important
> insulation decision involved pouring the concrete
> slab over a five-inch layer of insulating foam.
>
> ?It?s like a big, foot-and-a-half inch sweater around the house,? says Nobert.
>
> Second, the house is sealed tight as a drum.
>
> ?It?s like living in a plastic bag,? Nobert says.
> (Naturally, a house sealed that tight needs
> improved air circulation, which comes courtesy of
> a heat recovery ventilator, or HRV. Both the
> exhaust and outdoor air streams pass through HRV,
> and the heat from the exhaust air is used to
> pre-heat the outdoor air stream. An HRV is able
> to recover 70 to 80 per cent of the heat from the
> exhaust air and transfer it to the incoming air.)
>
> Third, the windows are the best you can buy. They
> have three panes of glass and are coated for
> maximum energy efficiency. As Nobert explains,
> these windows are as energy efficient as a wall
> in some houses. Indeed, they are quite warm to the touch.
>
> These three design decisions cost them less than
> $25,000, and got them 80 per cent of the way towards their net zero goal.
>
> The next big step, and the most complex and costly, is solar power.
>
> The house has 32 solar modules ? 20 on movable
> awnings, and 12 on the roof ? that generate
> electricity when the sun is out. When they are
> snow covered, solar modules are useless (just
> like at night). But any amount of sun melts the
> snow, and the solar array is at such an extreme
> angle that most the snow falls off.
>
> The solar arrays are in the back of the
> Nobert-Amores house, with an unobstructed south
> view allowing for maximum sunlight. You can do
> the same in a regular house, but that much
> sunlight coming in will heat up a house to
> sauna-like temperatures during the day. The
> solution to that, Nobert says, is the use
> of thermal mass ? in this case, 2 1/2? of
> concrete floors, using 10 tonnes of concrete. In
> October, when the sun is low and streaming into
> the house, the concrete acts as a heat battery,
> absorbing the heat during the day and releasing
> it at night. The house has a wood burning stove,
> the heat from which would be absorbed by the concrete floor.
>
> A solar hot water heater, which is not ?super
> effective? in the winter, supplies the house on a
> summer day with almost 100 per cent solar heated water.
>
> Of course, even the best built house needs some
> artificial heat during an brutal Edmonton winter.
> And while they have no furnace, the house does
> have electric baseboard heaters in all the rooms,
> each with its own control so there is no heating
> up an empty room. (During my visit, he turned off
> the baseboard heating because the day?s sun will heat the house.)
>
> Even energy efficient windows, super insulation
> and the solar systems aren?t enough, house designer Amerongen points out.
>
> ?The only way that it is remotely possible is to
> drastically reduce the amount of energy you?re
> using. There just isn?t enough space on the
> average urban lot for enough collectors to even
> begin to get all of the energy used by a typical house.?
>
> There is no escaping the use of electricity, but
> there are ways to reduce its usage. For example,
> the Nobert-Amores don?t have an electric dryer;
> they?ve been hang-drying their laundry for a decade.
>
> While most of us wait till we get our monthly
> power bill and gasp in horror at how much we owe,
> Nobert uses a web program that measures how much
> electricity is house is using ? or redistributing to the grid ? in real time.
> ?Yesterday at work I was watching this, and
> thinking, cool, it?s -30 out, and we?re feeding to the grid.?
>
> The house is ?smart enough? that it knows when to
> convert electrons from the sun for use in the
> house, so only surplus power is redistributed to
> the grid. All of this, of course, adds to the
> cost of the house. Producing your own energy on
> site is quite expensive ? the solar system cost
> about $50,000 ? so they only pay off about two per cent.
> ?But compared to an SUV, the payoff is amazing,? he?s quick to add.
>
> Aside from the long-term cost savings, Nobert is
> comforted by the fact he has ?energy security.
> ?In 40 years, these (solar systems) are going to
> be a financial asset still. They will be
> generating most of what they generate now. I
> don?t think you can get that safe of an investment anywhere.?
>
> The Edmonton Market
> ----------------------------
> So why aren?t there more net zero or near net zero houses?
>
> ?The conventional building industry doesn?t have
> the time, and consumers aren?t demanding it
> because they don?t know to. A lot of houses look
> nice, but they don?t know they?re buying an energy pig.?
>
> Amerongen wishes consumers were more
> knowledgeable about their choices when
> building new home. For anyone thinking of
> building a house today, the key is a higher level
> of insulation and air tightness throughout the
> building, and that includes the best windows you can afford.
>
> ?I think there is really a need for more consumer
> education. On a cost basis, going to net zero is
> not something you can justify on today?s energy
> prices. But building a cost on today?s energy costs is short sighted.?
>
> His clients are not just looking at cost savings,
> but are willing to spend the money because it?s
> the right thing to do. Super insulating a home
> under construction can add about $15,000 to the
> cost, but if you can achieve EnerGuide level of
> 86 (the max is 100), you?ll get a $10,000 grant
> from the government. That makes the payback on energy costs very short.
>
> (The federal government has produced an EnerGuide
> listing for houses, similar to that seen on
> appliances. New House build to building code
> standards should have an EnerGuide of 65-72; a
> new house with some energy-efficiency
> improvements should reach 73-79; and
> energy-efficient new house 80-90; and a house
> requiring little or no purchased energy, like a net zero house, rates 91-100.)
>
> There is tremendous interest in net zero housing
> in Edmonton, Amerongen says. His firm has another
> net zero house under construction and two more under construction.
>
> ?I?ve also been involved very peripherally in an
> apartment building that has the potential to
> achieve net zero. Our company also has another 10
> ultra energy efficient houses finished or under construction.?
>
> He also knows of four other net zero houses under construction.
>
> ?From discussions with people from across the
> country I?d say that there is more net zero and
> near net zero activity in Edmonton than anywhere
> in the country. We should be proud as heck.?
>
> Amerongen says he?s building energy efficient
> homes not just for the present, but for the future.
>
> ?I?m worried about looking my kid in the eye in
> 30 years when things are all going to hell. I
> want to be able to tell him I did what I could.?
>
> You can follow Nobert?s posting about his attempt
> at a net zero lifestyle at www.greenedmonton.ca
> =====================
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 22:40:06 -0500
> From: Frank Cetera <alchemicalfranklen at gmail.com>
> To: greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: [Greenbuilding] Radiant Hot Water? / Re: Zoned Heating
> Options
> Message-ID:
> <AANLkTin87NpSRhHtzV+YSLHuugxXvsq30d=+wsYdz8DQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I'm not so thrilled about the heat pumps option if they would be using freon
> within the tubes, is that how these things still work?
>
> How about options related to a gas boiler that would be able to supply
> retrofitted radiant heat on a zone by zone basis within the house? Maybe
> with the option for incorporating some pre-heating from a passive solar
> system as well? Any thoughts on this type of system?
>
> ~Frank
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 08:56:06 -0500
>> From: "John O'Brien" <john at boardom.ca>
>> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 5, Issue 45
>> Message-ID:
>> <AANLkTinGqu_W2WciE=Q0a3aFk-pP38dr_A8JJb5kLqBv at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> You're lucky to get down to -25C frank... My friend had a fuji RLQ
>> that kicks out at -15C. All of the literature I've seen for the Fuji's
>> state 5F/-15C as a minimum operating temp. I was under the impression
>> you had to go to a mitsubishi or daiken to get below that.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Paul Eldridge
>> <paul.eldridge at ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>> Hi Frank,
>>>
>>> I would recommend a high efficiency ductless heat pump such as the
>> Fujitsu
>>> 12RLS.? We have two ductless heat pumps in our home that satisfy
>> virtually
>>> all of our space heating needs -- an older and now discontinued Friedrich
>>> and a Sanyo 12KHS71.
>>>
>>> Earlier today I read the Kill-a-Watt monitor for our Sanyo. In past the
>> 109
>>> hours, it has consumed 41.56 kWh, which works out to be an average of
>>> 381-watts or 9.15 kWh/day.? Our average temperature during this time was
>>> -4.4?C (max: +1?C / min: -11?C) and this particular unit serves a little
>>> over 100 m2/1,100 ft2 without the assistance of any other heat source.?
>> It
>>> operates down to roughly -25?C and below that our oil-fired boiler takes
>>> over.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 22:08:37 -0500
>>> From: Frank Cetera <alchemicalfranklen at gmail.com>
>>> To: greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>> Subject: [Greenbuilding] Heating Options
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <AANLkTinHq1wk4aDMUXUF27L3mW3wu2u_jCGs4G9U+rdf at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>
>>> I'd like to pose the following question to the group:
>>>
>>> Whereas I am renovating a home from a vacant shell condition in which it
>> is
>>> currently inhabitable;
>>> Whereas I desire a Finnish Masonry ContraFlow Stove as the eventual
>> primary
>>> heating source of my home;
>>> whereas I likely won't have the time to have one installed before the
>> next
>>> heating season at which time I desire to be living in this house;
>>> As well as I likely won't have the funds to install one immediately as I
>>> will need some extra cash to install a foundation block of concrete below
>>> where the heater will be positioned;
>>>
>>> What would be a good heating system that:
>>> Doesn't rely on ductwork
>>> Would be able to heat by zone or room (it would just be me living in the
>>> home at first)
>>> Would function as a backup/secondary source once the Masonry stove was in
>>> place
>>>
>>> Upstate NY
>>> Single Family, 2-story, 1300 sq. ft.
>>>
>>> ~ Frank Cetera
>>> www.alchemicalnursery.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 14:03:12 +0000
>> From: jfstraube at gmail.com
>> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 5, Issue 45
>> Message-ID:
>>
>> <1911526484-1296482589-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-348820687- at bda218.bisx.prod.on.blackberry
>>>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>>
>> The last generation was more limited. Most of the new products released in
>> the last couple of years are going under -20.
>> The HyperHeat has solid performance but suffers from mediocre efficiency at
>> temps in the -10 and up range.
>>
>> Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network.
>> Envoy? sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le r?seau de Bell.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "John O'Brien" <john at boardom.ca>
>> Sender: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 08:56:06
>> To: Green Building<greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Reply-To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 5, Issue 45
>>
>> You're lucky to get down to -25C frank... My friend had a fuji RLQ
>> that kicks out at -15C. All of the literature I've seen for the Fuji's
>> state 5F/-15C as a minimum operating temp. I was under the impression
>> you had to go to a mitsubishi or daiken to get below that.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Paul Eldridge
>> <paul.eldridge at ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>> Hi Frank,
>>>
>>> I would recommend a high efficiency ductless heat pump such as the
>> Fujitsu
>>> 12RLS.? We have two ductless heat pumps in our home that satisfy
>> virtually
>>> all of our space heating needs -- an older and now discontinued Friedrich
>>> and a Sanyo 12KHS71.
>>>
>>> Earlier today I read the Kill-a-Watt monitor for our Sanyo. In past the
>> 109
>>> hours, it has consumed 41.56 kWh, which works out to be an average of
>>> 381-watts or 9.15 kWh/day.? Our average temperature during this time was
>>> -4.4?C (max: +1?C / min: -11?C) and this particular unit serves a little
>>> over 100 m2/1,100 ft2 without the assistance of any other heat source.?
>> It
>>> operates down to roughly -25?C and below that our oil-fired boiler takes
>>> over.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 22:08:37 -0500
>>> From: Frank Cetera <alchemicalfranklen at gmail.com>
>>> To: greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>> Subject: [Greenbuilding] Heating Options
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <AANLkTinHq1wk4aDMUXUF27L3mW3wu2u_jCGs4G9U+rdf at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>
>>> I'd like to pose the following question to the group:
>>>
>>> Whereas I am renovating a home from a vacant shell condition in which it
>> is
>>> currently inhabitable;
>>> Whereas I desire a Finnish Masonry ContraFlow Stove as the eventual
>> primary
>>> heating source of my home;
>>> whereas I likely won't have the time to have one installed before the
>> next
>>> heating season at which time I desire to be living in this house;
>>> As well as I likely won't have the funds to install one immediately as I
>>> will need some extra cash to install a foundation block of concrete below
>>> where the heater will be positioned;
>>>
>>> What would be a good heating system that:
>>> Doesn't rely on ductwork
>>> Would be able to heat by zone or room (it would just be me living in the
>>> home at first)
>>> Would function as a backup/secondary source once the Masonry stove was in
>>> place
>>>
>>> Upstate NY
>>> Single Family, 2-story, 1300 sq. ft.
>>>
>>> ~ Frank Cetera
>>> www.alchemicalnursery.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 10:25:49 -0500
>> From: "Reibstein, Rick (EEA)" <Rick.Reibstein at state.ma.us>
>> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Nansulate Insulation
>> Message-ID:
>> <
>> 50835C760ED4D344874E6FB7A31E70839474F48C at ES-MSG-EMB-001.es.govt.state.ma.us
>>>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Here's some recent government "commentary" on nano, if of interest,
>> articulating some principles for reducing risks over the life of the
>> nanomaterial-containing product. Regulations are more likely to be
>> developed once general principles for what they ought to achieve have been
>> widely accepted. This guidance was well-received in many quarters, but
>> progress is tenuous in this era where regulations are too often thought of
>> as bad for the economy. See also EPA's TSCA reform, which has been focusing
>> on nanomaterials, but which may not move as quickly as some might desire
>> with this Congress. The outlook of this document is that the absence of
>> good management practices (which regulations would help ensure) is what
>> really creates risks for the business itself, not just health and the
>> environment.
>> http://www.mass.gov/Eoeea/docs/eea/ota/tech_reports/ota_nanotech_guidance.pdf
>>
>> Rick Reibstein
>> MA Office of Technical Assistance
>> Executive Office of Energy and Environmental Affairs
>> 9th floor, 100 Cambridge Street
>> Boston, MA 02114
>> 617 626 1062
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:
>> greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of JOHN SALMEN
>> Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 1:22 AM
>> To: 'Green Building'
>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Nansulate Insulation
>>
>> The thing with nano technology is that at the same point that we are
>> starting to talk about risk we are already getting it as products. This is
>> a
>> huge huge emerging technology that is crossing and essentially
>> revolutionizing every product boundary from medicine to food to building
>> without significant regulatory research or commentary.
>>
>>
>> JOHN SALMEN ENVIRONMENTAL DESIGN
>> 4465 UPHILL RD,. DUNCAN, B.C. CANADA, V9L 6M7
>> PH 250 748 7672 FAX 250 748 7612 CELL 250 246 8541
>> terrain at shaw.ca
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of
>> elitalking
>> Sent: January 28, 2011 8:14 PM
>> To: Green Building
>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Nansulate Insulation
>>
>> Just a follow up on what I concluded from your input concerning Nansulate.
>> I had investigated aerogel when this product was brought to my attention by
>> a client. It had a sheet product that claimed an R10/inch. Some PH
>> projects that retrofitted old europeon stone buildings used it. It's
>> premium value was where dimension was limited. However, $/R was very high.
>>
>> Genarro Brooks-Church used it however, was not pleased with the results.
>> John Salmen used a similar nano technology as an additive to paint to add
>> to
>> durability and not a insulation. He made a credible case for that
>> application. However, the Nansulate gave bold claimes for performance as
>> insulation without giving an R value. If it has an R value of 10/inch as
>> aerogel claimes and 3 coats over existing finishes that could retain their
>> visual identidy and therefore not require another finish material, likley
>> could achieve 1/8" over 3 or 4 coats. This would only be an R1.2 or so.
>> That is not as good as insulated glass.
>>
>> Steve included some good links about aerogel that are forwarded below.
>>
>> I see there is a basis for the technology. However, I am suspicious of the
>> performance they are claiming. Also, there are some unknows regarding the
>> health affects that add to the risk. I would love to hear of someone who
>> actually used it for insulation as the manufacturers are promoting and here
>> about the performance. Although, I am not willing to go out on that limb.
>>
>> Eli
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Steve" <steve at greengeek.ca>
>> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 10:32 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Nansulate Insulation
>>
>>
>>> Hi Eli,
>>>
>>>> http://www.nansulate.com/nansulate_homeprotect_clearcoat.htm
>>>>
>>>> Is this stuff legitamate or snake oil?
>>>
>>> I've looked into several similar products over the last few years,
>>> invariably none of them were any more effective at insulating than a
>>> clay-based paint. I have no experience with this particular product,
>>> but based on similar ones I've seen, I'd lean towards snake oil. I
>>> hope I'm wrong about one of these products eventually though, as
>>> paint-on insulation would be very beneficial!
>>>
>>> The closest I've seen to a thin insulation that have proven results
>>> are aerogel-based products:
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerogel
>>> http://inhabitat.com/exciting-advances-in-insulation-with-aerogel/
>>> http://www.aerogel.com/
>>> http://thermablok.com/
>>>
>>> -Steve
>>> --
>>> http://www.greengeek.ca
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>
>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioener
>> gylists.org<http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioener%0Agylists.org>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
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>> gylists.org<http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioener%0Agylists.org>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 13:21:41 -0500
>> From: "elitalking" <elitalking at rockbridge.net>
>> To: "John Daglish" <johndaglish at online.fr>, "Green Building"
>> <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>, "jfstraube"
>> <jfstraube at gmail.com>
>> Cc: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] first certified Passive House in Canada
>> Message-ID: <014E3667F7574829A53F040CEE88DCB9 at lift>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-15";
>> reply-type=original
>>
>> John Daglish and list
>>
>> I am interested in how an air source heat pump is set up that would use the
>> exhausting HRV air for the air heat source. Intuitively this makes sense,
>> because the exhausted air is much warmer than the ambient air during
>> heating
>> season. Do you have manufacturers with equipment that does this? Can we
>> see a diagram or picture of an installation? It seems to me, this would be
>> another layer of heat recovery. However, I have never seen this.
>>
>> Eli
>>
>> John Daglish writes:
>> The certified Passivhaus quite often uses a heat pump in a
>> combined HRV ventilation unit. The air to air heat pump extracts the heat
>> from the
>> outgoing ventilation air after the HRV heat exchanger and heats the
>> incoming air after the heat exchanger of the HRV.
>> Very few (if any?) use a convential heat pump air to air external or ground
>> sourced heat pump. Its less costly to simply use the HRV "waste air"
>> combined/compact unit for both air heating and domestic hot water
>> heating than install a ground sourced heat pump.
>> External air to air heat pumps decline markedly in performance when
>> temperatures
>> get very cold less than 0C.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>
>> End of Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 5, Issue 49
>> ********************************************
>>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 00:04:42 -0500
> From: Tim Vireo Keating <t.keating at rainforestrelief.org>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Martha Stewart
> Message-ID: <a06240818c984eb63b2b4@[75.95.83.76]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> Sorry for the long post but? I find myself struck
> by so many aspects of this conversation that I
> simply cannot keep silent.
>
> When I see references to Star Trek, I am reminded
> of my assessment of the Star Trek mythology. The
> philosophy seemed to change a bit with the
> various shows, but only a little. It suggested
> that, in the future, humans had been able to
> solve all the problems plaguing their tenure on
> Earth and then, using new technology, venture out
> into space (presumably wiser than other species
> of life intelligent enough to either have taken
> over their own planets and/or to also have
> developed the means of space travel).
>
> A number of things come to mind when I think of
> the Star Trek philosophy (voiced, to some degree,
> by Gennaro). One is that, in order for it to
> truly work, the amount of resources poured into
> getting some humans to other planets will have
> assured the loss of many more species of life on
> Earth (after all, where will the steel, aluminum,
> plastic and energy come from?).
>
> The second thing is this (and forgive me for the twists and turns here):
>
> In an episode of Star Trek Enterprise (for
> non-watchers, this was the most recent TV
> iteration, the prequel to the original, taking
> place just after the development of the warp
> drive), I observed Captain Archer, talking among
> a small group that included a Vulcan, say
> something to this effect: "on Vulcan you've been
> able to control your emotions. But on the earth,
> we don't do things that way." That is, when he
> referred to someone else's planet, he named that
> planet using its proper name, without an article
> (as we still do with Mars, Venus, Jupiter, etc.).
> But, when referring to Earth, his own planet, he
> stated "it" as "the earth".
>
> I believe this to be an incredibly important
> difference and, I have noticed, it has now become
> the convention. Civilized humans have come to
> refer to the planet on (in) which we live as "the
> earth", in effect, expiring 'her'. It seems that
> our culture now considers our planet to be
> nothing more than a lump of dirt, even though we
> continue to refer to other planets with their
> proper - and capitalized - names. Indeed, in
> Gennaro's post below, he refers to "earth" (small
> "e").
>
> Why? It seems we have cut out the personal,
> spiritual sense we once had of our Mother as a
> living being. In my opinion, this was done
> intentionally, for expedience. After all, if
> Earth is a living being (like Io, Mercury or
> Vulcan), how could we mine her and remove her
> vital skin (forests)? Only by objectifying her
> can we do these things and feel okay - much as
> men objectified women and were thus able to 'own'
> them as wives (whereby they could not, by law, be
> raped). We did the same with animals. Thousand of
> years ago - and still today, among foraging
> peoples - we considered other animals to be part
> of autonomous nations. But at some point, we came
> to see them as property. Only then were were able
> to capture them and corral them and hobble them,
> whip them and cut off their genitals, so we could
> keep them around as our future food.
>
> I have come to understand that the notion of
> 'humans' leaving Earth for other planets is not
> only the epitome of the truly tragic (for all
> life) mythology of civilized humans, but also a
> grand delusion. If, when one looks around, one is
> not seeing a planet in crisis, where humans are
> about to succumb to the wave of extinction that
> we have, ourselves created, I believe one is
> deluded. If one is seeing this as okay, thinking
> that other planets are the relief valve, then, I
> believe, one is also part of the problem.
>
> The other thing that comes up for me around this
> is that civilized humans forget that
> non-civilized humans existed and, indeed, worked
> quite well, thank you very much, on this planet
> for a million years before the 'invention' of
> Civilization just a short 12,000 years ago. It is
> only Civilization that has led us to the
> precipice of Mass Extinction and the extinction
> of humans along with it.
>
> For me, the notion of colonizing other planets is
> very, very scary because, if Civilized humans do
> that, I believe it is simply INEVITABLE that we
> will destroy any planet on which we land. This, I
> believe, is simply the nature of Civilization.
> Civilized humans are the last thing I would wish
> upon our Milky Way.
>
> Ethiopian proverb: "no matter how far you've
> traveled down the wrong road? turn back".
>
> I believe what is needed is for civilized humans
> to re-embrace a way of seeing ourselves that is
> humble and abides Earth as the ultimate governor.
> That would, I think, mean that we have moved back
> towards seeing ourselves as a strand in the web,
> rather than the owners of this 'property' that's
> been "given" to us.
>
> I'll end with this: Bill states below the chances
> of other "life forms" crossing our path during
> our short existence as being "extremely low". My
> experience is quite different. From the time I
> was a child, I have grown to at first find
> fascinating, then admire, and then love the
> thousands upon thousands of other life forms that
> have crossed my path during my short (but
> fluorescent) time I have spent walking upon,
> swimming in and eating Mother Earth. I find
> "myself" surrounded by, and indeed, made up of,
> other life forms. So, perhaps, herein lies the
> problem. Most of us walk around never seeing
> them, never touching them, never really eating
> them - never (or so we think) depending on them.
> And thus, I often hear people express that 'we're
> alone here'. Wow.
>
> We are not alone. We are one species among what
> may be more than a billion unique life forms,
> surrounded by trillions of autonomous individual
> beings, all part of something grand. We call her
> Earth.
>
> The "final frontier" is the space between our ears.
>
> tim keating
>
>
> At 3:32 AM +0000 2/12/11, bill.allen at verizon.net wrote:
>> I too find it hard to believe that earth hosts
>> the only life in the vast universe. However,
>> considering the infinity of time involved, the
>> chances of other life forms crossing our path
>> during our short existence are extremely low.
>>
>> So, I believe we are stuck with just us, on
>> earth, so we better take the best care of it we
>> can.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Gennaro Brooks-Church <info at ecobrooklyn.com>
>> Sender: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 20:29:10
>> To: Green Building<greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Reply-to: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Martha Stewart
>>
>> Ron I'm not sure how vital us humans are to earth.
>> Maybe somebody can remind me but from what I remember us humans have
>> been on the earth for about 1% of it's life. And who knows how long we
>> last.
>>
>> In time the human infestation of earth may be remembered as a short
>> lived irritant in earths long life.
>>
>> And just to mix things up a little, I think it is the epitome of
>> arrogance to think humans are the only space travelers in this vast
>> universe.
>> My bets are that we are a designated nature preserve very much like
>> certain cavemen tribes are in places like the Andaman islands or
>> Borneo. The aliens are keeping us isolated so we are not tainted by
>> the issues of modern society (their modern society).
>>
>> Gennaro Brooks-Church
>>
>> Cell: 1 347 244 3016 USA
>> www.EcoBrooklyn.com
>> 22 2nd St; Brooklyn, NY 11231
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 8:13 PM, Ron Cascio <roncascio at verizon.net> wrote:
>>> Greenwashing taken to the limits of space.
>>>
>>> Dream on.
>>>
>>> We already have a home, and we have evolved as a vital part of it.
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynelle Hamilton"
>>> <lynelle at lahamilton.com>
>>> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 6:38 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Martha Stewart
>>>
>>>
>>> With polished silver tea service on board, I'm certain....
>>>
>>> Lynelle
>>>
>>> On 11/02/2011 5:59 PM, Jason Holstine wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Everyone on this thread is more prescient than I imagined...given
>>>> today's announcement that Martha Stewart is teaming with Sir Richard
>>>> Branson on a new Space Rocket/Housing Pod-sounds like an RV for space
>>>> travel.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2/11/11 1:53 PM, "Benjamin Pratt" <benjamin.g.pratt at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I don't have an issue with dreaming optimistically about the future. I
>>>> do have a problem with spending incredible amounts of resources and
>>>> money exploring the universe when it could be put to much better
>>>> use--toward research on the environment solutions to save our planet,
>>>> for example.
>>>> Ben
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> b e n j a m i n p r a t t
>>>>
>>>> professor art+design
>>>> the university of wisconsin stout
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>>>
>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>>>
>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> --
>>> Effective immediately, please use the following e-mail address to reach
>>> me: lynelle at lahamilton.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Greenbuilding mailing list
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3436 - Release Date: 02/11/11
>>> 02:34:00
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>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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>
>
> --
>
>
> "The Earth and myself are of one mind. The measure of the land and the
> measure of our bodies are the same..."
> - Hinmaton Yalatkit, Nez Perce chief
> ____________________________________________
>
> R A I N F O R E S T R E L I E F
>
> Sparing the World's Rainforests from Consumption
>
> Rainforest Relief works to protect the world's remaining tropical
> and temperate rainforests by reducing the demand for the products
> and materials of rainforest destruction such as timber and paper,
> industrial agricultural products such as bananas, beef, coffee,
> chocolate and cut flowers, and mining products
> such as oil, gold and aluminum.
>
> New York, NY: (917) 543-4064
> Portland, OR: (503) 236-3031
> http://www.rainforestrelief.org
> info at rainforestrelief.org
> Church Street Station * PO Box 298 * NY, NY 10008-0298
>
>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 22:17:35 -0500
> From: Tim Vireo Keating <t.keating at rainforestrelief.org>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] vinegar in wood
> Message-ID: <a06240816c984e5634a8c@[75.95.83.76]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
> It's certainly an interesting notion but I don't believe the
> acetylation process is that simple. There may be some pressure or
> heat involved - perhaps meaning that it's something you can't do
> easily at home.
>
> I would suggest that a simpler solution would be black locust or
> salvaged Atlantic whitecedar, or even more simply, some salvaged
> white oak, all of which should last as long (if not longer, in the
> case of black locust) than the acetylated softwood.
>
> Btw, the Accoya wood is radiata pine from plantations in Chile. Then
> shipped to Europe where it's processed, then shipped here. Those
> plantations could, IMHO, be much more sustainable as native species,
> selectively logged. But the same could be said for other processed
> wood products looking to compete with tropical hardwoods.
>
> tim keating
>
> At 7:55 PM -0500 2/13/11, Gennaro Brooks-Church wrote:
>> I came across this wood company that impregnates their wood to make it
>> more water resistant.
>> From a cursive look it seems the active ingredient is vinegar.
>> http://www.accoya.com/technology_the_process.html
>>
>> Does anyone know about this process? Can I build my next deck from
>> salvaged wood impregnated in vinegar?
>>
>> Gennaro Brooks-Church
>>
>> Cell: 1 347 244 3016 USA
>> www.EcoBrooklyn.com
>> 22 2nd St; Brooklyn, NY 11231
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>
> --
>
>
> "The Earth and myself are of one mind. The measure of the land and the
> measure of our bodies are the same..."
> - Hinmaton Yalatkit, Nez Perce chief
> ____________________________________________
>
> R A I N F O R E S T R E L I E F
>
> Sparing the World's Rainforests from Consumption
>
> Rainforest Relief works to protect the world's remaining tropical
> and temperate rainforests by reducing the demand for the products
> and materials of rainforest destruction such as timber and paper,
> industrial agricultural products such as bananas, beef, coffee,
> chocolate and cut flowers, and mining products
> such as oil, gold and aluminum.
>
> New York, NY: (917) 543-4064
> Portland, OR: (503) 236-3031
> http://www.rainforestrelief.org
> info at rainforestrelief.org
> Church Street Station * PO Box 298 * NY, NY 10008-0298
>
>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 22:25:02 -0500
> From: Tim Vireo Keating <t.keating at rainforestrelief.org>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Martha Stewart
> Message-ID: <a06240817c984e75ec158@[75.95.83.76]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed"
>
> When we went after Kmart for their sales of outdoor furniture made of
> nyatoh, a wood logged from old-growth rainforests in Indonesia, MS
> was one of the first entities to say they would phase it out. While
> it took them a little while (and in the meantime, they changed the
> language on the Kmart website to describe the furniture as made from
> "solid hardwood" instead of using the term "nyatoh") they did
> eventually shift to other materials. We never did an action in front
> of a Kmart store, while we did have to do that in front of Crate &
> Barrel, Pottery Barn, Restoration Hardware, Target and others.
>
> I think that some PR firms contracted by certain companies are simply
> more apt to discuss 'exposure' and public perception than others. I'd
> be surprised if there was any genuine embrace of the reality of the
> destruction of the planet in connection with what they are selling.
>
> tim keating
>
> At 12:07 PM -0500 2/10/11, Jason Holstine wrote:
>> MS partnered with one of the national tract builders (KB I think) to
>> build a NZE model home for the NAHB Builders Show in Orlando last
>> month. She just put her marketing label on it to provide that
>> bravado and $$--bonus she now gets to promote this angle. A
>> different form of greenwashing in my judgment-a shallow
>> johnny-come-lately but I grudgingly have to give some props for at
>> least paying creed to the concepts. It's a showpiece and will become
>> an "option" for buyers--I'm guessing they'll use it as a
>> test-the-waters to see if they get response and want to expand
>> offerings or prove to themselves that people aren't interested in
>> green.
>>
>>
>> On 2/10/11 7:30 AM, "Gennaro Brooks-Church" <<>info at ecobrooklyn.com> wrote:
>>
>> According to the add she has built a Net Zero home.
>> Which is great.
>> What irks me are the motives behind her actions.
>> I guess you see that a lot.
>> People doing great green things but not because they care about green.
>>
>> But maybe it does not matter? We seem to be genetically designed to
>> compete for survival. And we do it well.
>> What is more important, our survival or mother earth? You can say they
>> are connected but not necessarily so. We aren't living like Native
>> Americans any more.
>> Maybe mother earth is just a stepping stone for humans now. Once we
>> exhaust it we will be technologically advanced enough to colonize
>> other planets. If we keep on our current path I think that is the
>> inevitable route. Whether we are able to expand and colonize is more
>> the question. Whether we destroy earth is less of a question if we
>> look at earth now vs. a thousand years ago.
>>
>> Gennaro Brooks-Church
>>
>> Cell: 1 347 244 3016 USA
>> www.EcoBrooklyn.com
>> 22 2nd St; Brooklyn, NY 11231
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 9:20 PM, Kathy Cochran
>> <<>kathys_old_house at goldrush.com> wrote:
>>> That's GREAT for a long-lasting chuckle! Somehow, I don't think you're
>>> missing the boat too much, Gennaro!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: <>greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> [<mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org]
>>> On Behalf Of Gennaro
>>> Brooks-Church
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 6:15 PM
>>> To: listserv Green Building new
>>> Subject: [Greenbuilding] Martha Stewart
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Did you hear Martha Stewart is the new leader in green home design?
>>> According to a full page add in the Dec. Residential Architect mag.
>>> And this whole time I had no idea.
>>> I feel so out of the loop.
>>>
>>> Gennaro Brooks-Church
>>>
>>> Cell: 1 347 244 3016 USA
>>> www.EcoBrooklyn.com
>>> 22 2nd St; Brooklyn, NY 11231
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> <>Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>
>>> <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> ________________________________
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>
> --
>
>
> "The Earth and myself are of one mind. The measure of the land and the
> measure of our bodies are the same..."
> - Hinmaton Yalatkit, Nez Perce chief
> ____________________________________________
>
> R A I N F O R E S T R E L I E F
>
> Sparing the World's Rainforests from Consumption
>
> Rainforest Relief works to protect the world's remaining tropical
> and temperate rainforests by reducing the demand for the products
> and materials of rainforest destruction such as timber and paper,
> industrial agricultural products such as bananas, beef, coffee,
> chocolate and cut flowers, and mining products
> such as oil, gold and aluminum.
>
> New York, NY: (917) 543-4064
> Portland, OR: (503) 236-3031
> http://www.rainforestrelief.org
> info at rainforestrelief.org
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>
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> End of Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 6, Issue 22
> ********************************************
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