[Greenbuilding] Passive solar home--concrete overlay re thermal mass

[Peter Kidd]

Sorry I'm better at obtuse. I don't think I can add to the answers 
you've already received, here and at the other site where you have 
posted. You are suggesting that there is significant change to the 
thermal properties of concrete by adding a small amount of additive to 
the mix. It would be great if you are right and I look forward to 
reading about it. I think you have identified the bigger issue of 
whether a topping would provide a durable solution, regardless of the 
thermal mass obtained.

On 13-05-13 08:45 PM, KTOT (g) wrote:
> I do not understand your paragraph, Peter Kidd. Can you please 
> clarify? I understand your comment about new world of compact 
> insulation solutions---you're saying different layers wouldn't lessen 
> thermal mass as if they did, all insulation would be layers of 
> differing materials, I believe---but I still haven't found an answer 
> to my question about the modified acrylic latex resin in the overlay 
> product.

> Re thermal mass, every book and article I've read identifies good 
> thermal mass materials being clay, concrete, water, stone---and that's 
> pretty much it (ceramic tile being clay, adobe being clay, etc.) If 
> you don't like the earth materials definition, what is the definition 
> of high thermal mass materials? How are they defined scientifically, 
> chemically, mathematically, or in whatever way, but a very exact, 
> precise way? I need technical details on this.
> No, I am not at all wondering if adding a second layer may cause 
> problems. I am quite sure. But I have to have hard factual data to 
> present to the other side to get them to pay for a total redo of the 
> floor.
> *From:* Peter Kidd <mailto:peterkidd at shaw.ca>
> *Sent:* Monday, May 13, 2013 7:35 PM
> *To:* greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org 
> <mailto:greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Greenbuilding] Passive solar home--concrete overlay re 
> thermal mass
> Between different materials! Is it anyone's experience that simply 
> layering materials achieves significant resistance to heat loss? 
> (that's not the same as "wear layers") If that works we have a new 
> world of compact insulation solutions ahead of us. The followup 
> comment about tile or other "overlays" versus an intimately bonded new 
> layer was about there being no air gap or other materials to add a 
> little resistance in the latter case. And earth vs non-earth, that is 
> a philosophical choice not an issue of "thermal mass". Am I correctly 
> recalling that the original "slab" was two inches as well? It is 
> seriously cracked, and you are wondering if adding a second relatively 
> thin, apparently (also?) un-reinforced layer may cause problems. What 
> is under the current concrete layer?
>
>
> On 13-05-13 10:06 AM, Vadurro, Rob, EMNRD wrote:
>>
>> I believe the concern is the transfer of heat between different 
>> materials. I can't remember where I saw it, but there was a table 
>> showing the transferring heat between base and finish materials, say 
>> tile to concrete slab below in passive solar conditions and the rate 
>> of transfer was much less than one might think. The joint between the 
>> two impeded the heat transfer, in other words. I would think an 
>> acrylic additive may impede the transfer even more. The best is 
>> always to not cover the slab, only color it, if heat retention in the 
>> slab is the goal.
>>
>> Rob Vadurro, AIA
>>
>> Park Architect
>>
>> New Mexico State Parks
>>
>> 1220 South Saint Francis Drive
>>
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505-476-3383
>>
>> 505-476-3361 fax
>>
>> *From:*Greenbuilding 
>> [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] *On Behalf Of 
>> *Topher
>> *Sent:* Monday, May 13, 2013 8:39 AM
>> *To:* Green Building
>> *Subject:* Re: [Greenbuilding] Passive solar home--concrete overlay 
>> re thermal mass
>>
>> On 5/13/2013 1:07 AM, KTOT (g) wrote:
>>
>>     Does anyone have experience or knowledge about this? Using or not
>>     using a concrete overlay product for the top layer of a floor for
>>     thermal mass, vs. a plain darkly stained concrete slab
>>
>>
>> A concrete overlay product is likely to be roughly similar in thermal 
>> characteristics to a concrete slab.  Meaning that you will just have 
>> a thicker thermal mass.  It seems unlikely that you should be worried 
>> about /too much/ thermal mass in a passive solar house.  The overlay 
>> product might have a lower specific heat, or conductivity, wither of 
>> which will reduce it's effectiveness somewhat.  Remember to stick 
>> with a dark color.
>>
>> Thank You Kindly,
>>
>> Corwyn
>>
>> -- 
>> Topher Belknap
>> Green Fret Consulting
>> Kermit didn't know the half of it...
>> http://www.GreenFret.com/
>> topher at greenfret.com  <mailto:topher at greenfret.com>
>>

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