[Greenbuilding] On Insulating Crawlspaces and Basements: BAD FOAM!

Jason Holstine jason at amicusgreen.com
Mon Jun 2 17:33:52 CDT 2014


Well, I like the concept but it leaves more questions than answers. Any
manufacturer willing to put down a couple grand can buy a shiny USGBC Member
decal (or buy a greenwashing certificate?), and the same can be said about
Terrapass offsets for a nickel each. That¹s not to poo-poo what Terrapass is
doing, but I have trouble believing this crew has created a better
closed-cell SPF that doesn¹t have the fire retardant and GHG potential
problems of the rest of the bunch.  Somebody probably needs to talk to their
tech guru to find out if/how the chemistry is really different. A lack of
transparency would be another red flag.


On 6/1/14 9:25 PM, "Leslie Moyer" <unschooler at lrec.org> wrote:

> Keith (or anyone),
> 
> Do you know anything about "Foam It Green" as it relates to these issues
> (or others)?  It's a DIY spray foam kit.  They don't have too much info
> on their website....they are a member of the USGBC and "balance" their
> carbon emissions through Terrapass.
> 
> On 9/9/07, 11:57 AM, Keith Winston wrote:
>> I don't have time to comment on your crawlspace issue, but I will say:
>> 
>> Don't use TigerFoam, HandiFoam, and all other 2-part builder-applied
>> foams. Also, don't use contractors who use Dow FrothPak, which is the
>> same type of foam but in addition to small builder packages is sometimes
>> blown from trucks in large volumes.
>> 
>> All these use refrigerants as blowing agents. They release 7-15 lbs of
>> refrigerants  (typically HFC's) for each 600 sf (board foot) package.
>> The Global Warming Potential (CO2 equivalency) of these refrigerants is
>> around 1500-2000, which means that those (nominal) 10 lbs are equivalent
>> to about 7-10 TONS of CO2 release. That will counteract at least the
>> majority of your CO2 reductions resulting from better insulating.
>> 
>> I think this is a scandal that needs to be exposed. I have been talking
>> about it with many people (including people in the industry), but
>> haven't really figured out how to get word out. Until/unless we regulate
>> carbon emissions, there are no regulatory tools to apply (the
>> manufacturers changed from CFC's and HCFC's as blowing agents to avoid
>> Ozone/Montreal Protocol problems).
>> 
>> "Good" PU foams are blown using a proportioner with heated hoses in a
>> truck, and water is the blowing agent. Even the little one-part PU foam
>> cans from Home Depot, etc, are powered by isobutane or other simple
>> hydrocarbons with relatively low GWP.
>> 
>> I am now accepting donations to my legal defense fund ;-)
>> 
>> If I have anything wrong here, I'd love to know. Constituents can be
>> (roughly) determined from MSDS sheets for foam products.
>> 
>> Keith
>> 
>> 
>> Thomas Lewis wrote:
>>> Hello All,
>>> 
>>> I just purchased a home and am developing my project
>>> list.
>>> 
>>> I would like to pose my plan for insulating the
>>> crawlspace and basement for your comment.
>>> 
>>> The crawlspace is ~180ft2 with a dry layed stone
>>> foundation of unknown depth and ~2' thick.  It has
>>> been worked on over the years.  The exterior is
>>> pointed with a layer of stucco over that and two
>>> sections have been replaced with 8" masonry block.
>>> One section is a corner and the other is a four foot
>>> section with a vent.
>>> The crawlspace has ~6" - 36" clearance from grade to
>>> floor joist, all above exterior grade.
>>> 
>>> The location is hudson valley ny, on top of a hill
>>> with clay soil, NE exposure.  The soil in the
>>> crawlspace appears to remain moist much of the time,
>>> but has not been wet yet and there are no signs of
>>> water damage on wood laying in there.  However, wood
>>> that is partially embedded in the ground is moist but
>>> with no signs of fungal or mold activity.
>>> 
>>> My idea is to spray foam with 1.75 lb tiger foam. (I
>>> may just hire our local spray foam guys to do this,
>>> being that they have air supply masks et al)  Clean up
>>> all debris and remove a layer of soil, which is
>>> pitched to the center of the room from all points.  I
>>> will then dig a trench in the center, pour a small
>>> footing for a center post, repost the center support,
>>> then lay gravel in the trench and over cleaned floor,
>>> then cover the floor with polyethylene with standard
>>> lapping and sealing details.
>>> Based on lack of evidence of water, other than ground
>>> moisture, and the prospect of installing one into a
>>> place that I can barely roll over in when laying
>>> prone, I am opting to not put in a sump pump.
>>> 
>>> I will install a 6" round, the kind with a weighted
>>> baffel, heated air supply to the space, with a return.
>>>   The basement is loosely connected to the air supply
>>> system, there is one 6" supply and one 8" return down
>>> there.  If I return the crawlspace air to the
>>> basement, will I pressurize the basement and
>>> depressurize the living space?  Its an old loose
>>> house, with many places where air moves between
>>> floors.  (I imagine the stack effect is pretty
>>> substatial here)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I am haveing a bit more trouble planning for the
>>> basement insulation.
>>> 
>>> Here I have 8' ceilings, the first four feet is stone,
>>> then on top of that I have brick.  The stone is below
>>> exterior grade and the brick generally starts 6" below
>>> grade and goes to 3' above grade.  I was thinking of
>>> repointing the interior where necessary, then spraying
>>> 2 lb. foam on the stone (~3") and a thin (3"?) layer
>>> of 0.5 lb. on the brick.
>>> .5 lb on the brick because I am concerned with
>>> reducing the brick's drying capability and with it
>>> getting too cold during the winter.  My thought is
>>> that if I insulate alot, it will be harder for the
>>> brick to dry and the exterior will get colder during
>>> winter and may damage the brick.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> My apologies, this email seems to have gotten rather
>>> long. Thanks for reading it and in advance for any
>>> advice you may have.
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> Tom Lewis
>>> 
>>> 
>>> "Time makes more converts than reason."  Thomas Paine, Common Sense
>>> 
>>> 
>>>         
>>> 
> 
> 
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