[Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 8, Issue 17
IPC
ipcipc at mweb.co.za
Mon Apr 11 15:24:53 CDT 2011
Paul Anderson asked for design details. It has a copper coil (~10mm pipe)
inside a 200mm pipe, coil length ~1.2m (of coil - length of pipe must be
considerable. Coil turns almost touch.) For an inlet of 17 deg C, outlet is
55 deg C at 3 litres/min, 39 at 4, 35 at 5. It burns about 12ml paraffin a
minute.
Have fun!
Philip Lloyd
54 Alma Road
Rosebank, Cape Town
7700
Tel 021 686 9141
Cell 083 441 5247
plloyd at mweb.co.za
Skype philiplloyd3609
Remember - the world has been getting warmer for 150 years, and is still a
lovely place to live in. Reject prophets of doom.
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: aluminium top plate (Gerrie Baker)
2. SA Paraffin Geyser (Philip Lloyd)
3. Re: SA Paraffin Geyser (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
4. Re: SA Paraffin Geyser (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
5. Re: SA Paraffin Geyser and water heaters in general
(Paul S. Anderson)
6. Re: SA Paraffin Geyser and water heaters in general (Jeff Davis)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 08:51:01 -0400
From: Gerrie Baker <gbaker at rideau.net>
To: Lloyd Helferty <lhelferty at sympatico.ca>
Cc: Hugh McLaughlin <wastemin1 at verizon.net>, Discussion of biomass
cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] aluminium top plate
Message-ID: <4DA1A7B5.7050007 at rideau.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed"
Let me know if you are successful getting Jompy into Canada. I think there
is something in between Hugh's paint tin stove and the Jompy that we could
develop.
I am continuing trails with Biochar and Humates with the worms. A young
student at RMC/Queen's is writing her thesus and this report will be very
interesting.
Gerrie
Dedicated to delivering organic waste solutions through education and
demonstrations of worm composting habitats indoors and outside. Focused on
converting garbage to gardens and encouraging people to grow their own
healthy nutritious food and beautiful edible flowers.
The Worm Factory
874 Grady Road, Foley Mountain
Westport, ON K0G 1X0
613-273-7595
www.thewormfactory.ca
On 08/04/2011 4:20 PM, Lloyd Helferty wrote:
> Crispin,
>
> It's easy enough to create a*"short and hot" flame* from a biomass
> gasifier.
> It was recently demonstrated for us in Illinois by Hugh McLaughlin
> using one of his TinCan TLUD's (see photo).
> (Note: With very simple device made out of tin cans, which
> was/fan-powered/, the flame was very hot, but no more than an inch or
> so tall...)
>
> P.S. I am hoping to help get devices like the Jompy into Canada --
> especially for our many isolated Northern communities (First
> Nations**), who continue to deal with many water issues.
> (We might wish to discuss this further sometime.)
>
> ** As highlighted by the /*Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs*/,
>
> ?The lack of safe drinking water to First Nation communities is
> not caused by a lack of regulations. The lack of safe drinking
> water is cause by a*lack of infrastructure, financial resources
> and technical expertise* to ensure the safety of the water supply.?
>
>
> P.S. There is even a Proposed /*Safe Drinking Water for First Nations
> Act*/ (Bill S-11) before parliament right now.
> http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/enr/wtr/esp/bll-eng.asp
>
> The proposed legislation also addresses recommendations made by the
> /*Commissioner of Environment and Sustainable Development*/ (Office of
> the Auditor General), the /*Expert Panel on Safe Drinking Water for
> First Nations*/, and the /*Senate Standing Committee on Aboriginal
> Peoples*/.
>
> The/*Expert Panel on Safe Drinking Water for First Nations*/,
> established in June 2006, was one of the principal components of the
> federal government?s March 2006 /*Plan of Action for Drinking Water in
> First Nations Communities*/. The Panel held a series of public
> hearings across Canada throughout the summer of 2006 and tabled its
> report in November 2006.
>
> Following the introduction of Bill S-11, the /*Assembly of First
> Nations*/ issued a press release stating that the proposed legislation
> "/will *not* meet the objective of ensuring First Nations have access
> to safe drinking water/".
> The /*Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development*/ already
> defines "priority communities" as those communities that have both
> /*high-risk drinking water systems*/ and a /drinking water advisory/.
> (Indian and Northern Affairs Canada (INAC) is just concluding a
> _national assessment of First Nation water and sanitation systems_,
> which will be released soon...)
>
> The Bill has gone through 2nd Reading in the House of Commons and
> their last meeting was March 9, 2011, but now that there is an
> election everything is on hold. They still have to come up with a
> Committee Report and the Report has to go through Presentation and
> Debate(s) before going through a 3rd Reading before the Act comes into
> force, which will likely be well /after the election/.
>
> My hope is that with the introduction of devices like the Jompy that
> we can help to */prevent/ the privatization of water infrastructure in
> First Nation communities* by Governments that are intent on finding
> "solutions" but don't have the budgets to build major water
> infrastructure in all of these remote communities of the North,
> especially given the constrained budgets of /all/ Governments (and
> communities) right now.
> (Note: The existing legislation essentially allows for "a private,
> for-profit entity to build, operate and/or manage its water and
> wastewater services" in First Nation communities.)
> see: http://canadians.org/water/documents/FN/Bill-S11.pdf
>
> *Risk of Water Privatization in First Nation Communities*
> Subsection 4. (1)(c)(iii) states that ?regulations may confer on
> any person or body the power, exercisable in specified
> circumstances and subject to specified conditions, to require a
> first nation to enter into an agreement for the management of its
> drinking water system or waste water system in cooperation with a
> third party.?
>
> We are extremely concerned that this clause could open the door to
> water privatization in First Nation communities. This subsection
> provides the Canadian government with the power to force a First
> Nation community to allow a private, for-profit entity to build,
> operate and/or manage its water and wastewater services. To be
> clear this clause alone does not guarantee the privatization of
> water and wastewater services in First Nation communities.
> However, given the/*lack of funding commitments in Bill S-11*/,
> this clause facilitates water privatization on reserves.
> Given federal financing trends and the negotiation of a trade
> agreement between Canada and the European Union, it is possible
> that the operationalization of this clause in the current economic
> and political context will lead privatization in some First Nation
> communities.
>
> Canada is an enigma. We are considered a "first world" nation, yet
> *the social, economic, and demographic characteristics* of remote
> /*Inuit, Aboriginal and First Nations communities*/ in Canada often
> *mirror those in /developing nations/*.
>
> These remote, Northern communities are often challenged by limited
> access to health services, low socio-economic status, high
> unemployment, crowded and poor-quality housing, low educational
> achievement, and in particular, concerns regarding basic services such
> as *drinking water quality and sanitation*.
>
> Multiple Canadian Government agencies are tasked with looking after
> the people of the North. These include "*Indian and Northern Affairs
> Canada*", "*Health Canada*" and the "*Public Health Agency of
> Canada*", among others (yes, Canada does have /*two [2] _separate and
> autonomous_ Health Agencies*/... see: http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca
> <http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/> and http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca
> <http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/>).
>
> It is now understood that conventional technologies for drinking
> water treatment are no longer considered adequate for ensuring the
> delivery of potable water to the communities of Northern Canada. This
> is particularly true in smaller, more remote communities, where the
> infrastructure for *treatment of* both *drinking water* and
> *wastewater*** is often limited and can be /*very expensive*/.
>
> **Note: *Wastewater treatment solutions* for the North could also
> include technologies like /*Biochar Composting Toilets*/...
>
> "Source water protection" is a relatively new concept for these
> communities, and is NOT helped by the fact that most of the
> /*extractive industries*/ [i.e. *mining*] is done in the North, and is
> very loosely regulated, if at all.
> (Most mining laws and policies in Canada do not allow for local
> populations to consent (or not) to mining projects that will affect
> their communities and environment. see:
> http://www.yorku.ca/cerlac/EI/papers/Lapointe.pdf)
>
> Thus, most of the Indigenous communities in Canada?s North have some
> kind of */problems with drinking water quality /*that will continue to
> be experienced in the communities of Northern Canada for years (and
> perhaps decades to come -- as a result of the legacy of /*toxic waste
> disposal*/), which highlights the need for*simple and inexpensive
> clean water technologies* as a "back up" to the local water treatment
> systems in these communities, since /centralized water treatment/
> alone cannot be relied upon to protect human health.
> (The residents of at hundreds of aboriginal reserves must boil their
> water before it is safe to drink.
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2008/04/07/boil-advisory.html)
>
> "Ninety people in Canada die and another *90,000* get sick from
> drinking contaminated water each year."
>
> Some reserves have been under */boil-water advisories/* for _years_.
> Amazingly, Canada does not have national drinking water quality
> standards.
>
> A recent paper released by the */Sierra Legal Defence Fund/*
> reported "/major drinking water concerns in First Nations communities
> and all northern regions where drinking water treatment technologies
> are often inadequate or poorly maintained/".
>
> Compounding the difficulties in protecting sources of drinking water
> is the reality that wastewater treatment systems that work in the
> south are often /*not appropriate for use in the far north*/.
> (Wastewater in the North is presently discharged to lagoons or natural
> wetlands that are often _/frozen/_ for much of the year.)
>
> The people of the North are in need of simple technological
> solutions for the treatment of drinking water, which could become an
> important tool for ensuring outbreaks of disease in these communities
> does not recur due to contaminated drinking water issues.
>
> Any drinking water treatment technology that is used must also be
> easily adopted by northern (Indigenous) communities (in order to
> ensure long-term sustainability).
>
> Regards,
> Lloyd Helferty, Engineering Technologist
> Principal, Biochar Consulting (Canada)
> www.biochar-consulting.ca
> 603-48 Suncrest Blvd, Thornhill, ON, Canada
> 905-707-8754; 647-886-8754 (cell)
> Skype: lloyd.helferty
> Steering Committee member, Canadian Biochar Initiative
> President, Co-founder& CBI Liaison, Biochar-Ontario
> Advisory Committee Member, IBI
> http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=1404717
> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=42237506675
> http://groups.google.com/group/biochar-ontario
> http://www.meetup.com/biocharontario/
> http://grassrootsintelligence.blogspot.com
> www.biochar.ca
>
> Biochar Offsets Group:http://www.linkedin.com/groups?home=&gid=2446475
> "Necessity may be the mother of invention, but innovators need to address
problems before they become absolute necessities..."
>
> On 2011-04-08 3:55 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
>> Dear Christa
>>
>> Good to hear from you.
>>
>> I wondered what Marlis was up to in the highlands.
>>
>> Still looking forward to making my first trip to Madagascar.
>>
>>> the Swiss NGO ADES ran with the idea and started making pot supports
in 2009, but I only saw the first stove in Switzerland last year (see
photos). I don't know the cost but it is affordable.
>> This looks like a great way to create a tapered gas space under the pot.
If you remember the guy with the water heating coil (Jompy, UK?)...there is
a guy Werner Schultz in Namibia making stoves for his staff that have a
coiled pipe inside the stove body. Such a pipe could be cast into a stove
top like the one in you photo, sort of a combination of the two ideas.
Werner uses copper pipe.
>>
>> So let's give it shot in a few countries.
>>
>>> and I like Crispins idea to cast different pots.
>> I think Dale would be please to see his work verified in a real product.
If recasting a pot saves 15 or 25% of the fuel, or just makes cooking
faster, that would be a quick and reliable improvement. Once the idea caught
on all future pots would have fins. I saw a finned wok somewhere - I think
at an ETHOS meeting (?). Clearly would help with a gas/biogas cooker,
probably gasifiers too if the flame is short and hot.
>>
>> Paul, I know you're listening!
>>
>> Regards
>> Crispin in Toronto
>>
>>
>>
>> Let us know how things go. It might be easier to getting the pots
adopted than some stoves...
>> regards Christa
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 22:11:58 +0200
From: "Philip Lloyd" <plloyd at mweb.co.za>
To: <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: [Stoves] SA Paraffin Geyser
Message-ID: <4AA2913B534F4409BFCFC36ACFDA358D at private95a3azq>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
We have tested this quite extensively and can vouch for its claims.
Prof Philip Lloyd
Energy Institute
Cape Peninsula University of Technology
PO Box 652, Cape Town 8000
Tel:021 460 4216
Fax:021 460 3828
Cell: 083 441 5247
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 10:16:37 -0600
From: "Andrew C. Parker" <acparker at xmission.com>
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: [Stoves] SA Paraffin Geyser
Message-ID: <op.vtqctwlguoov7l at user-8ezctxe031>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed;
delsp=yes
I remember posting something about another (or the same?) SA paraffin geyser
some time ago. Crispin, have you seen this one? It ought to be a fairly
easy to adapt a number of different wood/biomass burner designs to this type
of boiler.
http://www.cbuying.co.za/index.php/paraffin-geyser
http://www.slideshare.net/GreatNews/paraffin-water-geyser
------------------------------
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 22:19:39 +0200
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] SA Paraffin Geyser
Message-ID: <000001cbf7bc$a6f29860$f4d7c920$@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dear Andrew P
>I remember posting something about another (or the same?) SA paraffin
geyser some time ago. Crispin, have you seen this one?
There are several of these devices available, three I can think of. One is
called the "Geyser 2000". It might be the original 'modern' one.
The ones with cloth wicks which can be seen at holiday camps.
I would class it as a type of Kelly Kettle. I don't have any idea how old
the principle involved is (single heating tube immersed in water).
>It ought to be a fairly easy to adapt a number of different
>wood/biomass
burner designs
>to this type of boiler.
http://www.cbuying.co.za/index.php/paraffin-geyser
http://www.slideshare.net/GreatNews/paraffin-water-geyser
I agree. It has a heck of a lot of draft so there is a need to seriously
look at the excess air in the pipe. From the look of it, there is a lot of
room to improve it. I didn't get enough from numbers from the two sites that
would allow one to calculate the thermal efficiency. Like most small
paraffin burners, virtually no one tests the combustion efficiency and
thermal efficiency of their devices, and even in good intentions they do,
they will often get answers that are not all that helpful.
The best I can calculate is that the thermal efficiency is 69% based on the
fuel at 44 MJ/kg and a density of 0.83 and the 200 litres was heated from 20
to 50 deg. That is not particularly impressive given that we can find pots
on stoves working in a similar range.
I have written to Prof Philip Lloyd and SABS (South African Bureau of
Standards) and asked if it falls under their regulation as a 'cooking
device' in which case is would have to comply with SANS 1906 (non-pressure
heating and cooking appliances under 3.5 kW).
Regards
Crispin in Cape Town
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 22:21:57 +0200
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] SA Paraffin Geyser
Message-ID: <000401cbf7bc$f71a9d60$e54fd820$@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Thanks Philip
Does the figure of 69% ring true?
Thanks
Crispin
PS Are you coming to the energy efficient housing demo tomorrow? So far we
have 22 people organised.
++++++
We have tested this quite extensively and can vouch for its claims.
Prof Philip Lloyd
Energy Institute
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 16:45:14 -0500
From: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
<crispinpigott at gmail.com>
Cc: Hugh McLaughlin <wastemin1 at verizon.net>, 'Discussion of biomass
cooking stoves' <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] SA Paraffin Geyser and water heaters in general
Message-ID:
<20110410164514.149217z1mkkhsgsg at redbirdmail.illinoisstate.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
format="flowed"
Dear Andrew, Philip, Crispin and all,
A useful topic for our Stoves Listserv. My comments:
1. The SA device (and others like Kelly Kettles) are single function
devices. Very appropriate in many situations. Although other functions
(include cooking of food) could occur before the hot gases go to the water
heater in a chinmey, let's keep the focus on the single function so we do
not get side tracked.
2. The use of a parafin (kerosene) burner is almost a mote point.
There must be a heat source, and the basic concept is that the heat can be
turned off when the water heating is finished. Easily done with fuels like
parafin, alcohol, LPG, electricity. Not so easy when burning dry biomass,
but some devices are more suitable than others.
The batch aspect of TLUDs can be an advantage here. Building a 3-stone fire
under the water heater would not be so good. But the SOURCE of the heat is
not our main topic.
3. I request from Philip Lloyd (because he has tested the SA unit and might
still have one handy) (or anyone else?) to tell us the diameters of the
central chimney flue and of the outer shell, giving us the size of the
annulus in which the water passes. Also heights. We need to know
(calculate) the surface area of the hot chimney and the volume of water that
is in the device at any one time. There would be major differences if those
dimensions were changed. We already have the volume of water (200 liters)
put through the geyser in (how much?) time. Is there any insulation on this
device?
4. There are two important alternative water heating technologies to
consider and compare. One has a pipe (probably a copper coil) inside the
chimney flue. Here the surface area for heat exchange becomes highly
important.
The other has a pipe coiled around the chimney flue, which would be
drastically less efficient.
5. So, I appeal now to the engineer-types who are reading this: How do we
maximize and improve upon this? And at what costs (increases in price)?
6. If anyone has contact with the SA geyser company, feel free to copy them
into this discussion. The objective is to expand the acceptance of the
water heating technology, increasing their business as well as creating
business for people in other countries. Less fuel, more service/value for
the customer, and greater flexibility of heat sources. (for example, that
company could consider having a small TLUD as an alternative source of heat.
I and others will gladly assist them to add that option.)
NOTE: There are other special purpose heat-using devices that we should
consider (such as 2 - 4 cups of hot water for tea in the morning), but
please use other Subject titles if you want to discuss them.
Paul
--
Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Known to some as: Dr. TLUD Doc Professor
Phone (USA): 309-452-7072 SKYPE: paultlud Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
www.gtz.de/de/dokumente/giz2011-en-micro-gasification.pdf (Best ref.)
Quoting Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispinpigott at gmail.com>:
> Dear Andrew P
>
>> I remember posting something about another (or the same?) SA paraffin
> geyser some time ago. Crispin, have you seen this one?
>
> There are several of these devices available, three I can think of. One is
> called the "Geyser 2000". It might be the original 'modern' one.
>
> The ones with cloth wicks which can be seen at holiday camps.
>
> I would class it as a type of Kelly Kettle. I don't have any idea how old
> the principle involved is (single heating tube immersed in water).
>
>> It ought to be a fairly easy to adapt a number of different wood/biomass
> burner designs
>> to this type of boiler.
> http://www.cbuying.co.za/index.php/paraffin-geyser
> http://www.slideshare.net/GreatNews/paraffin-water-geyser
>
> I agree. It has a heck of a lot of draft so there is a need to seriously
> look at the excess air in the pipe. From the look of it, there is a lot of
> room to improve it. I didn't get enough from numbers from the two sites
that
> would allow one to calculate the thermal efficiency. Like most small
> paraffin burners, virtually no one tests the combustion efficiency and
> thermal efficiency of their devices, and even in good intentions they do,
> they will often get answers that are not all that helpful.
>
> The best I can calculate is that the thermal efficiency is 69% based on
the
> fuel at 44 MJ/kg and a density of 0.83 and the 200 litres was heated from
20
> to 50 deg. That is not particularly impressive given that we can find pots
> on stoves working in a similar range.
>
> I have written to Prof Philip Lloyd and SABS (South African Bureau of
> Standards) and asked if it falls under their regulation as a 'cooking
> device' in which case is would have to comply with SANS 1906 (non-pressure
> heating and cooking appliances under 3.5 kW).
>
> Regards
> Crispin in Cape Town
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
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>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 21:02:28 -0400
From: Jeff Davis <jeff0124 at velocity.net>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] SA Paraffin Geyser and water heaters in general
Message-ID: <1302483748.1442.20.camel at jeff-laptop>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Dear List,
I'll be attending an event in a few weeks and staying in a hotel isn't
practical so I will be car camping. In the process I'll have to cook and
heat water for my showers. I plan on using a modified pump up garden
sprayer for my shower and cleaning cooking ware. Of course the water
will just be heated on the stove. I'll adjust the water temperature by
adding hot or cold water into the sprayer.
I purchased a Coleman dual fuel stove, white gas and gasoline. Maybe I
should also take my Woodgas Camp Stove and see which one is the best
fit. Wish I also had a charcoal and coal stove.
Maybe I should keep notes on this adventure.....
Jeff
--
________________________________________________
www.puffergas.com
Sent from any port in the storm via Acer netbook & Ubuntu Remix.
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